The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings, wherever they may be, will be treated equitably. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and those are set out on your agenda.

1. Questions to the Minister for Social Justice

The first item on our agenda is questions to the Minister for Social Justice, and the first question is from Tom Giffard.

Universal Basic Income

Tom Giffard AS: 1. Will the Minister provide an update on plans for a universal basic income for Wales? OQ56695

Jane Hutt AC: I thank the Member for that question. Our programme for government commits us to piloting an approach to basic income as a means to supporting those in greatest need. Work is under way and we have begun designing a pilot, scoping this work and determining how it will be implemented and measured.

Tom Giffard AS: Diolch. Can I thank the Minister for that answer? The Centre for Social Justice's report, 'Universal Basic Income: An Effective Policy for Poverty Reduction', argues that UBI is unaffordable, putting at risk the provision of important services in healthcare and in education, adding that it, quote,
'Doesn’t meet the needs of low income households facing complex problems such as drug addiction, dangerous debt, and family breakdown',
and
'Provides a major disincentive to find work',
and
'Is no more generous to the most disadvantaged households than the provisions under Universal Credit.
In addition, we also know that studies show that UBI also has a limited effect on people's overall engagement with the labour market, and they also ask whether a higher rated UBI would be so expensive that it's difficult to invest in other essential services, such as the cost of construction of new social housing and the provision of low-cost public transport. So, with the evidence against UBI stacking up, Minister, will you outline which of our public services in Wales you think will need to be cut in order to afford it?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I'm sure that Tom Giffard will have had sight of the very useful and, I think, informative Public Health Wales report, which was just published last week. It does actually suggest that introducing a basic income scheme in Wales could be a catalyst for better health and well-being outcomes for all. Clearly, these are early days. There's a range of views. We're looking at all of the pilots, listening to stakeholders, and, indeed, it's been widely welcomed locally, nationally and internationally that we are progressing with this pilot. Universal basic income is about alleviating poverty, but it's also about giving people more control over their lives and having a positive effect on mental health and well-being. And we're focused on how a small basic income pilot could be designed to support those in greatest need, potentially involving people leaving care.

Luke Fletcher AS: The Minister won't be surprised to hear that Plaid Cymru is very supportive of UBI, and we look forward to seeing the final proposal from the Government on the pilot. Very quickly, has the Minister approached the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure that there's an arrangement in place so that any basic income payment isn't counted against any recipients who might also be in receipt of universal credit? I'm sure the Minister would agree with me that the last thing we'd want to happen is for those in receipt of a basic income to be worse off in the end.

Jane Hutt AC: I'm grateful for that question because, as we take the pilot forward, very much at the scoping and early stages, we are focused on how the pilot could be designed to support those in greatest need, but ensuring that those who are receiving benefits or welfare are not made worse as a result. So, clearly, we then will engage, as we scope the pilot, with discussions with the DWP to take us forward. But, also, we have learnt a lot by drawing on the experience of Scotland who have already undertaken quite a bit of work on this, to ensure that we learn from them because they have already tested this in terms of the UBI trial in Scotland.
I think it's also very important that I draw the Member's attention to the fact that, last year, in fact, the Senedd did also approve and a motion was passed—we have a new Senedd now, but last Senedd—to establish a UBI trial in Wales. So, I think there is great interest, and we need to now take this forward and listen to our stakeholders to make sure that we draw on the experience of Scotland and other countries around the world, that we do the complex work, and then I can ensure that we work together, as far as possible, I think, cross-party, because there's a lot of interest cross-party, even from the former Senedd Member David Melding, who wrote on this in former times.

Equality in the Public Sector Workforce

Altaf Hussain AS: 2. How does the Welsh Government intend to promote equality within the Welsh public sector workforce? OQ56675

Jane Hutt AC: I thank Altaf Hussain for that question. The Welsh Government is committed to promoting advancing equality across the Welsh public sector workforce. As well as seeking to be an exemplar employer, we are using our social partnership approach and influence to encourage employers to go further to reap the benefits of a more equal and inclusive workforce.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you very much. Minister, as one of a very small number of Members in this Senedd from the black, Asian and minority ethnic community, I'm all too aware of the challenges that many people face in this workplace, because of their ethnicity, gender and sexual orientation. Recently, the British Medical Association published a charter for medical schools to prevent and address racial harassment. The charter addresses four specific areas: supporting individuals to speak out; ensuring robust processes for reporting and handling complaints; mainstreaming equality, diversity and inclusion across the learning environment; addressing racial harassment on work placement. What discussions has the Minister had with our medical schools to ensure that racism is not to be tolerated? And will you support the BMA charter to give medical students confidence to speak out when needed? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I very much welcome the Member's experience and evidence in drawing attention to the charter for medical students. Indeed, I have mentored BAME medical students, who have drawn attention to some of the issues that they faced in terms of prejudice and discrimination. It is vital that our higher education institutions respond to our race equality action plan, currently out to consultation, and that we can incorporate all of the measures, including this charter for medical students, in that response to the race equality action plan. And I was very grateful for your positive response last week, when I tabled a statement on the race equality action plan. It is to seek an anti-racist Wales, and we want to be an exemplar, don't we? So, our medical school needs to be at the forefront of that, but it will result—successful implementation—in a fairer employment market, and a fairer education and training system, and it will also ensure we get those outcomes in terms of health and social services and the workforce in health and social care. But, also, the Hate Hurts Wales campaign, which we launched in March of this year, does raise awareness and understanding of hate crime and encouraging reporting, but airing it today is another message and voice that's been expressed, which I do welcome.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Welsh Governments have been responsible, as you know, for co-ordination of cross-cutting measures to promote prosperity and tackle poverty in Wales for over 22 years. As the Joseph Rowntree Foundation reported last year, Wales has retained the highest poverty rate of all the UK nations throughout devolution since 1999. Further, their 'Poverty in Wales 2020' report, last November, found that Wales still has lower pay for people in every sector than in the rest of the UK and that, even before coronavirus, almost a quarter of people in Wales were in poverty, living precarious and insecure lives. And, as the Bevan Foundation also stated, poverty was a significant problem in Wales long before the arrival of COVID-19. What alternative actions do you therefore propose to ensure that the Welsh Government works in real partnership with, and empowers, the voluntary sector, community groups and other social entrepreneurs to help deliver solutions to the long-term problems of our most deprived communities?

Jane Hutt AC: I thank Mark Isherwood for that question and, clearly, sharing the concerns of the Bevan Foundation, and, also, pointing to the fact that they are concerned about the sudden withdrawal of UK Government COVID support schemes, such as furlough and top-up for universal credit, and I hope Mark Isherwood and his colleagues would support my call for the UK Government to maintain the additional £20 per week universal credit payment beyond the autumn. In fact, I've written to the Secretary of State, Thérèse Coffey, and told her about our work to maximise income, and this is where, of course, we work so closely with the third sector. But we do have to recognise also how deeply concerned we are about the financial impact of the pandemic and it has fallen disproportionately on those who are already struggling. In fact, that's why maximising incomes and building financial resilience for those who are affected are key. So, although the key levers for tackling poverty—powers over tax and welfare systems—sit with the UK Government, we're doing everything that we can to reduce the impact of poverty and to support those living in poverty.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. I regret you didn't answer my question, and I quoted various bodies that pointed out that these problems long pre-dated COVID, and they're calling, therefore, for a change of tack. As I stated here last November, the recent Building Communities Trust report, 'Building Stronger Welsh Communities: Opportunities and barriers to community action in Wales', is about harnessing the strengths and skills of local people so that they can build the social infrastructure and shape the services they want and need in their area. After facilitating a national conversation at 20 events held across the length and breadth of Wales, they found that, and these are quotes:
'Disconnect between Government, public bodies and communities is a barrier to community action, despite examples of cross-sector collaboration',
that,
'people in Wales feel increasingly less able to influence decisions affecting their local area...that "worthy words are not being backed up by action"...that public bodies are "doing to, not with" people and communities',
and that,
'entrenched public sector ways of working characterised by poor communication, lack of trust, risk aversion, silo working, professional bias and staff demotivation'
are significant barriers to greater community action. How will you therefore be engaging with them and other bodies, such as those I mentioned, to design, deliver and monitor a better way of working across Wales?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I clearly have responded to the very important report that came out this week from the Bevan Foundation. In fact, I made it my business to meet with Victoria Winckler of the Bevan Foundation early on when I had this portfolio for social justice. Social justice has to be about empowering communities, and, indeed, that's what brought me into politics. And it is about engaging with our communities to ensure that we are getting it right in terms of the interventions that we are making. And, of course, as I said, the key levers for tackling poverty, working with our communities, are about making sure that they can get the advice they need to resolve problems with welfare, benefits, housing and debt, but also support for a more generous social wage through our childcare offer, our council tax reduction scheme, our Warm Homes programme and free prescriptions. This is about actually enabling Welsh citizens to maximise their income, and our child poverty income maximisation action plan demonstrates how we have done that. But it is crucial that we take and work with our communities as we address these key issues.

Mark Isherwood AC: As I've indicated, these were the bodies that made clear these are longstanding problems. Yes, we must treat the symptoms, but we must also tackle the causes. The Building Communities Trust 2021 manifesto for healthier, happier and more resilient communities in Wales begins,
'Every community in Wales has the resources and influence it needs to build community capacity, and develop and run its own social infrastructure.'
One of Diverse Cymru's key asks in their 2021 manifesto is co-production, as they state,
'Legislation, policy and practice must be co-produced with individuals representing the diversity of...Wales across all characteristics to ensure that it respects every individual and advances equality for all.'
And yesterday's Bevan Foundation briefing on poverty, which you just referred to, in Wales this spring stated that a key theme that has emerged is that, without intervention, our recovery is likely to be unequal. What, therefore, if any, specific plans—not restating the aspirational comments that you've been sharing with us for as long as I can remember in this place, and which I almost entirely share with you—do you have to establish genuinely asset-based community development as a key principle within community development, empowering the people of the community and using existing community strengths to build sustainable communities for the future?

Jane Hutt AC: I don't think we have any disagreements, Mark Isherwood, in terms of the way forward to empower communities and, indeed, I think, probably in sharing with you during election campaigns in hustings with the Building Communities Trust and hearing some powerful examples of social enterprise community engagement, which you can see in terms of many of the initiatives that we're supporting in terms of tackling food poverty, fuel poverty, and ensuring that our communities are accessing the policies that we are putting forward to address poverty.
You asked me about addressing poverty and how we can engage the third sector. I met with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action last week, and one of the key points being made was the strength of volunteering and the ways in which we need to address inequalities as a result of the pandemic. And indeed, it is very important that you do also join me in calling for the UK Government to address the inequities in terms of our welfare benefits system, which has had such an adverse impact on the lives of people in those communities.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Llywydd. Weinidog, we've heard already this afternoon about the recent report published by the Bevan Foundation, which has provided us—as the title of the report suggests—with a snapshot of poverty in Wales during this spring 2021 period. The report makes for shocking reading, I'm sure you'll agree. What's more shocking are the problems the pandemic has exacerbated. The stark inequality it reveals is not new, and even more disturbingly, that inequality is deepening; deepening at a time when many of the protections put in place during the last months for the most vulnerable are now ending.
One of the key issues discussed in the report is the housing crisis that is affecting so many of our people and how it is driven by this inequality. Perhaps the most shocking statistic is that 6 per cent of households have already been told that they will lose their home. That's equivalent to 80,000 households who have already had to or will have to find a new home, and this despite protections from eviction being in place when this evidence was gathered. And it's those most economically and socially vulnerable that are having to deal with this crisis: it's mainly lower income households, disabled people, working-age adults. Clearly, the damage has been done to many individuals and families beset by fear and anxiety due to insecure housing, facing eviction, some of the temporary measures that have supported them, such as the ban on no-fault eviction, which is now being lifted.
I'd like to welcome the new tenancy hardship grant announced today. It will help some people stay in their homes, but for many, risks will remain, and so, with these things coming to an end, the no-fault eviction ban, furlough support, universal credit coming to an end, and these new grants only being processed—beginning to be processed—by mid July, can I ask the Minister what steps she and her Government will take, apart from the tenancy hardship grant and its finite resource, to ensure that people facing housing precarity don't lose their homes and slip through the cracks?

Jane Hutt AC: I'm grateful for that question, because it does go to the heart of the need of tackling poverty in Wales and the challenge that we've got. Can I say that having the role of Minister for Social Justice provides a huge opportunity for me and the whole Government to address the issues that you raise? Because we have to tackle that inequality, which some of you might have heard Professor Michael Marmot on the Today programme this morning talking about, and the fact that the deepening of inequalities as a result of the pandemic means that we have to build a fairer, as well as a better, recovery, and that, I'm sure you'll agree with me, is the way forward.
And that's why, in terms of tackling poverty, not just in terms of looking at our own work and the way the programme for government is focusing on the power of all of our collective efforts across the whole Government to address this, we are and I'm sure you would join me in urging the UK Government to change their ways in terms of extending universal credit to ensure that it goes forward in terms of that £20 a week beyond the autumn.
Our advice and advocacy services are absolutely critical to tackling poverty as well. So, you'll be aware of the single advice fund: £9.6 million of grant funding available for provision of advice services during this financial year. That's going to be crucial in terms of supporting those tenants who are now going to be able to access the tenancy hardship fund announced today. But also recognising what we've done over the past year, which isn't going to change: funding of £166 million to local authorities through the housing support grant, because homelessness prevention is critical, and it is where local authorities are playing their part to prevent people from being homeless. Our tenancy saver loan scheme—that's for those low-cost loans available to private sector tenants—those moving into the grant will be crucially important, but working with the Minister for Climate Change Julie James, making sure that we lever in the advice services, Citizens Advice, Shelter, as well as our local authorities, to ensure that that tenancy hardship grant will be backed and supported by all the agencies as well as the local authorities at a local level.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you. The same report has found that one in three households in Wales don't have enough money to buy anything beyond the daily basics. We're talking around 110,000 households, roughly the same number of households as are in the city of Swansea. Hundreds of thousands of people across the nation are forced to borrow money, taking them further into debt, having to cut back on food, heating, clothes, and once again, those who have seen the greatest decline in their income, according to the Bevan Foundation, have seen the greatest increase in their costs of living.
In expanding the provision of free school meals to the 70,000 children in poverty that aren't eligible at the moment, we could decrease child poverty and inequality significantly, by decreasing living costs for parents who find it difficult, and give a better start in life to children. It's an affordable measure. If eligibility were expanded to include every family who are in receipt of universal credit, the additional cost would be £10.5 million. Child poverty and widening inequality is clearly a social justice issue. So, Minister, when can we expect further action on expanding the provision of free school meals by this Government?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you for that question. You know that the Minister has undertaken to undertake a review in terms of free school meals, and I think it is very important again to note what the First Minister said yesterday about the uplift in the take-up of free school meals from 66,000 in January 2020 to 105,000 in January 2021. But I'd also like to draw attention to some of the other ways in which we can particularly support children and families in relation to tackling poverty, and draw attention to the holiday enrichment scheme, for example, which is going to result in many families in our schools, in our communities, who are going to benefit from the holiday enrichment scheme.
But it is going to be through every aspect of Welsh Government, whether it's education, housing through the climate change ministry, in terms of jobs and employability, that we can tackle poverty. We are tackling worklessness, reducing economic inequalities, we're tackling educational inequalities with the pupil development grant, and of course we have the most generous offer of free school meals in terms of the reach out to children during the school holidays. Can I also draw attention to the great schemes that are going on now in the Valleys, in Llynfi valley, Aberdare, Merthyr and Ammanford, for example, with the Big Bocs Bwyd scheme? I think Mark Isherwood might like to visit those schemes as well.

Sioned Williams MS: In such a bleak economic landscape, and without the power, as you referenced earlier, to ensure a fairer, more humane welfare system than that on offer from the Tory Westminster Government, the discretionary assistance fund is a vital source of support. While the Welsh Government invested an additional amount of money into the DAF and made eligibility criteria for accessing the support more flexible in response to the COVID crisis, this additional flexibility is due to end in September. So, given this picture painted by recent research and the Government's own data, this is really concerning, given that people will continue to face financial hardship and crisis after this date, and for whom the DAF has provided crucial support during such an exceptionally difficult time. Will the Minister and Welsh Government therefore consider continuing the additional flexibility for accessing the DAF beyond the end of September to ensure that those who need this support are able to access it? Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: We're very proud of what we've been able to achieve in terms of tackling inequalities by ensuring that there is that flexibility in terms of the discretionary assistance payment fund, but also to ensure that more than one payment can be made. That was one of the restrictions to ensure that people could access the fund. It's very much part of our income maximisation action plan, and indeed also will be very much linked to support to be given to private sector tenants, linked to the tenancy hardship fund.

Question 3 to be answered by the Deputy Minister. Darren Millar.

Support for Veterans

Darren Millar AC: 3. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government’s support for veterans in Wales? OQ56685

Hannah Blythyn AC: Our third armed forces covenant annual report details the wide range of support for veterans across Wales. This year we have seen excellent progress including increased investment in veterans mental health services, funding for veterans to access further and higher education and continued funding of our armed forces liaison officers.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that response, Deputy Minister. Last week to mark Armed Forces Week, I took a visit to Adferiad Recovery's headquarters in Colwyn Bay in my constituency. Adferiad Recovery is a service provider to veterans through its Change Step programme, which has operated now for over a decade. Over 3,000 individuals with post-traumatic stress disorder have been supported by that particular programme, and they have provided 57,000 hours of one-to-one peer mentoring support. The cost of that service over the decade has been around £5 million, yet only £40,000 of that has come from the Welsh Government, and yet that is in spite of the fact that for every £1 invested in the service, academic research has shown that it saves the public purse £7 in return. Can I ask the Welsh Government whether it will look at the resources that it makes available to support veterans in Wales, and to see whether there's an opportunity here to invest to provide more sustainable funding to the Change Step programme, which of course operates across Wales and has benefited so many of my constituents and those of the Deputy Minister and others in this Chamber?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank Darren Millar for his question? I know this is an area that you're very committed to and very passionate about in the work you do with the cross-party group on armed forces as well, and also attend the expert group on armed forces as a guest on that.
The work you pointed out is quite rightly to be applauded, particularly on the back of Armed Forces Week, where many of us in this Chamber paused to pay tribute to those who've served, and those who continue to serve, the veterans and the contribution they make not only to our country, but to our communities right across Wales. The role of the third sector and those charities, we know they're the ones and we've only been able to provide that support to veterans and their families because we've worked collaboratively in partnership. You'll be very familiar with our armed forces scoping exercise, pointing out the progress we've made, but also the work that still needs to be done and where those gaps were. So, I'll most certainly be happy to look at the points he's raised today and come back to the Member, if he'd like to get in touch about that as well.

Child Poverty in South Wales East

Delyth Jewell AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on child poverty rates in South Wales East? OQ56701

Jane Hutt AC: I thank the Member for that question. On Monday I published the progress report on the child poverty income maximisation action plan, and this shows that our first national benefits take-up campaign resulted in an additional £651,504 claimed by those entitled to benefits, including households in south-east Wales.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Minister. Wales now has the highest rate of child poverty of any UK nation, with one in three children living in poverty. I worry that we've become so used to hearing that figure that it's lost its potency, so just to remind the Chamber that what that figure—that one in three children figure—means is that thousands of children in Wales are going to bed hungry. They're going into school, into classes, with their bellies empty, but they're also having to deal with the worry and the anxiety knowing that their parents are stressed. They may feel that they have to hide their situation from their friends, so they've got no-one to talk to. What I'm getting at, Minister, is that the impact of child poverty isn't just physical: it's not just about malnutrition or not keeping warm or comfortable, as damaging as those things are; it's also about the emotional strain, the bullying that can happen and the toll that poverty can take on young people's well-being and mental health. What will your Government do to address this hidden issue?

Jane Hutt AC: I thank Delyth Jewell for those very important questions. For me, as Minister for Social Justice, I will say there's never been a more important time to do all that we can practically to mitigate the impacts of poverty with the powers and levers that we've got. During the last Senedd term, as you will remember, the First Minister did make that commitment to re-engineer existing funding programmes to ensure that they have the maximum impact on the lives of children living in poverty. And that led to the report that I've just mentioned, and practical actions there. It's not just aboutmaximising the incomes of families living in poverty, but also helping them to build resilience. This goes back to your key points about the impact on people's lives, on their mental health—supporting families to not just increase their income, but also to ensure that they can get into employment and that they can improve the outcomes of children and families. This is, of course, a cross-Government task in terms of backing the Flying Start programme, which has such an important support network across Wales in our most disadvantaged communities. But can I just say that, again, it is important that we look at what we're doing? There's over £60 million in additional funding to local authorities for free-school-meal provision during 2021, an additional £23 million up until 2022, in the next financial year, and the commitment I've already mentioned to review eligibility criteria. Can I say that the school holiday enrichment programme is a real opportunity? The school holiday fun and food programme, and the 'summer of fun' that has already been announced by the Deputy Minister for Social Services—those are going to be the ways in which we can reach out to those children and those families, with the potential for supporting those children in those communities and households that are experiencing poverty.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, the Welsh Government set out in its child poverty strategy in 2015 that its ambition was to make sure no child was living in poverty by 2020. Needless to say, we're now in 2021. Save the Children has reported that Wales has the highest child poverty rate of any nation in the United Kingdom. Figures from 2019-20 showed that 31 per cent of children in Wales were still living in poverty, compared to 30 per cent in England and 24 per cent in Scotland and Northern Ireland. Even before the pandemic, almost 200,000 children were living in poverty here in Wales, with a higher proportion of children affected than at any point in the past five years. Minister, I know you've referred to the central Government on a number of occasions, but the Bevan Foundation has said there is a lack of joined-up thinking on the part of the Welsh Government, with policy too focused on increasing employment and policies not working in harmony. Therefore, Minister, what is the response—what is your response specifically—to the Bevan Foundation, and how will you ensure that an integrated, cross-Government approach is followed to eliminate child poverty here in Wales? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: I would have to say—thank you for that question—that the research that's been undertaken by the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, the Resolution Foundation, all the respected organisations, does look at the impact of the UK Government's programme of tax and welfare reforms, frozen for four years—benefits frozen for four years—and the fact that this has such an impact in terms of powers in terms of tax and welfare. They sit with the UK Government. So, I hope you will also support the extension of the £20 per week universal credit beyond September. Wouldn't it be good if the Welsh Conservatives were backing that as well? Because we have got to work together to mitigate the impact of poverty and improve the outcomes of people living in poverty. But can I just say how good it was that there was such support yesterday for the Minister for Economy when he announced the youth guarantee? Because employment does give a sustainable route out of poverty—giving that offer to all those under 25. It is about a joined-up approach, of course. Our child poverty action plan is setting out the Welsh Government's objectives for tackling child poverty, and I hope you will read the 2019 progress report and the one that I announced on Monday.

Buffy Williams MS: Minister, working and volunteering throughout the pandemic in a third sector capacity, I experienced first-hand the detrimental effects COVID has had on Rhondda families. Loss of income and increasing living costs have sadly seen families and individuals struggling to make ends meet. I'm grateful for the provisions put in place by Welsh Government to support these families, but there is still a very real problem surrounding the stigma of asking for help. What plans do the Welsh Government have to not only help end the stigma of seeking support, but to encourage families who are in desperate need of support to come forward and utilise available provisions, especially over the summer holiday period?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Buffy Williams, for that very important insight into the impact of COVID on communities, and also the ways in which you were very engaged, I know, as other Members were, in empowering communities and volunteers, which of course increases their esteem and also their capacity. This is about entitlement—entitlement to the benefits that we are now ensuring that they can access, but it's also entitlement to engage in projects like the school holiday enrichment plan.

Prisons and the Probation Service

Rhys ab Owen AS: 5. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government regarding prisons and the probation service since the election? OQ56680

Jane Hutt AC: The Welsh Government continues to work closely with Her Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service. I welcome the transfer of all offender management into the National Probation Service. This was completed this week. I have met with HM Prison and Probation Service officials to progress joint initiatives.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you very much, Minister. As you'll be aware, one of the major issues of the justice system in Wales is the lack of specific data for Wales. When HMPPS gave evidence to the justice commission in the spring of 2019, they said that their statisticians were collaborating with those of the Welsh Government to look at the level of recidivism.

Rhys ab Owen AS: I'll turn to English with regard to the next point, because I'll quote exactly what they said. They went further and said that a working group had been established between them and the Welsh Government
'to look at disaggregating data'
in our part of the justice system. My question, therefore, Minister, is: how is that important work going of disaggregating the data in that very important part of the justice system, to have Welsh-specific data? Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Rhys ab Owen. You raise a very important point, a point that I raise regularly with the Ministry of Justice. In fact, I'm meeting a Minister tomorrow—Alex Chalk—and I will raise this issue again. It came so clearly through the Thomas commission analysis; it will be something I know that I will be working on with the Counsel General in terms of our justice sub-committee of the Cabinet. But that data is crucial for us to understand how we can ensure that there are better outcomes in terms of the impact of the criminal justice system on Welsh citizens.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Minister, a recent article in The Lancet highlighted the high number of deaths from coronavirus in prisons, and this is despite offenders being locked in their cells for up to 23 hours a day to stop the spread of the virus. This will be of particular concern in areas around open prisons in Wales, such as the Prescoed prison in Usk in my region of South Wales East. Would the Minister please update us about how she's working with the UK Government Minister and the prison service on a plan to tackle the spread of coronavirus in our prisons, and also how she's ensuring that inmates and communities around prisons are being protected?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Laura Anne Jones, for that question. In fact, I met with the executive director of HMPPS Wales today and we had an update on prisons. He did say—and you'll welcome the progress report—that recovery is going well in prisons. They have four levels. The fourth level, the highest level, is when they aren't able to come out to activities and are very much confined to their cells, with level 1 being almost normal service. He actually reported to me today that all prisons in Wales are at level 2 apart from Swansea, which is going to move to level 2 later this week. He also confirmed that there are no outbreaks in prisons in Wales and that staff cases are low. He was very positive about the fact that there is close working with the devolved services that, of course, support our prisons, in terms of health particularly, which is key, but also in terms of the opportunities for prisoners when they leave prison.
I would just like to very quickly say how much I welcome the unification of the probation service. We actually did press for this and we unified it ahead of England back in December 2019. We pressed for it; it wasn't in our powers, but I have to say that a certain Rory Stewart, the former Minister, actually pressed for it as well and we achieved it. But as of Monday, everything is unified; we have a National Probation Service, which will be crucial for the communities and for the people leaving and resettling from prisons across Wales.

Gypsy, Roma and Traveller Communities

Gareth Davies AS: 6. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to promote cohesion between Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities and the residents of the Vale of Clwyd? OQ56698

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Gareth Davies. Through our funding of the community cohesion programme and the TGP Cymru Travelling Ahead project, we provide advice, advocacy and inclusion to foster good relations between communities in the Vale of Clwyd and across Wales, including Gypsies and Travellers.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you for that answer, Minister. Denbighshire County Council has, for many years, struggled to find suitable locations for residential and transit Gypsy and Traveller sites. They have explored multiple sites that have turned out to be unsuitable to all concerned. However, Minister, Gypsy and Traveller sites have been secured across north Wales by neighbouring local authorities. Will you accept that a better approach to addressing the needs of Gypsy, Traveller and Roma communities, and the needs of local residents, would be to adopt a regional approach to providing residential and transit Gypsy and Traveller sites?

Jane Hutt AC: I don't accept that at all. I hope that you will look at our Travelling Ahead plan as a local Member. Every local authority has a responsibility in terms of ensuring that local authorities provide adequate and culturally appropriate sites where there is a need. Denbighshire County Council—I understand, and we must encourage—has a legal duty to undertake a new Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessment every five years, but it has not yet succeeded in delivering on its obligations. Let's hope that the consultation goes well. That has to include talking to Gypsy and Traveller families and the wider community, including representative groups, over the summer. It is vital that every local authority in Wales—. We have seen over 200 new pitches created and refurbished across Wales, delivered as a result of the investment. We are currently funding projects of £1.2 million to refurbish existing accommodation, and we have new sites. This is what Denbighshire now needs to do.

A Community Bank for Wales

Ken Skates AC: 7. What progress has the Welsh Government made regarding plans for a community bank of Wales? OQ56668

Jack Sargeant AC: 8. Will the Minister make statement on the progress being made to open a community bank in Wales? OQ56671

Jane Hutt AC: Llywydd, I understand that you have given permission to group questions 7 and 8. The private sector proposal to establish the community bank for Wales is contingent on regulatory approval. Operational delivery plans continue to develop in parallel with regulatory assessments and wider Welsh Government evaluation, in order that Banc Cambria can be established at the earliest opportunity post regulatory approval and investment decisions.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you, Minister. I am delighted that this question is being grouped with Jack Sargeant's as well, given that Jack has been such a strong supporter of a community bank. A recent report in the Flintshire and Wrexham Leader highlighted the alarming loss of bank branches in north Wales. Data published by the paper show that Clwyd South is the worst affected constituency in north Wales. Minister, are you able to outline how my constituents will benefit from the creation of a community bank following the loss of all but one bank in Clwyd South?

Jane Hutt AC: I'm very glad that Jack Sargeant has also raised this question this afternoon. At the end of 2021, there will be just one bank left serving the people of Clwyd South. The area has lost 80 per cent of its banks since 2015. It puts residents at risk, travelling out of town. The Barclays branch in Llangollen is the only physical bank branch left in the constituency.
The community bank, just to say for Members, is a benefit, and I think that this is well supported across this Chamber. It's going to be a mutual owned by, and run for the benefit of, its members. It will improve access to banking services and access to cash, with multichannel bilingual banking services for people and businesses. It will also be collaborating with the Welsh financial ecosystem, for example credit unions, and will create direct jobs as well. No community banks operate in the UK, but we will be the first community bank to operate. Banc Cambria aims to provide everyday retail banking across the whole of Wales.

Jack Sargeant AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Could I just start by thanking the Member for Clwyd South for his kind words—Ken Skates—and also for his work as a Minister to date on the community bank, and the Minister who is responsible now, Jane Hutt, for her commitment to date? Minister, as you have know, I've long championedfor a community bank in Buckley in my constituency. Can you update the Chamber on the progress being made to open Wales's first community bank branch in Buckley?

Jane Hutt AC: Yes. Well, thank you very much, Jack Sargeant, another champion and pioneer for the community bank bid, alongside former economy and transport Minister Ken Skates, who got this initiative under way, and it is so good that we are taking this forward. I know how hard the Member for Alyn and Deeside—and Buckley, I believe the town council have campaigned for a community bank in Buckley. So, the roll-out and timing of branches are under development by Banc Cambria, and I'm also meeting high-street banks shortly to discuss social justice issues because of the closure of bank branches across the whole of Wales, which must concern the whole of this Chamber.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you for your responses so far to these points, Minister. Clearly, some communities are seeking community banks in their areas. I was wondering how you prioritise which towns and communities would have a community bank in them.

Jane Hutt AC: This is the work of Banc Cambria, as they take this forward. I'm very glad that they have sought to meet Members and key people, spokespeople, across the Chamber. They're looking particularly at relationship working and partnership with credit unions, so I can give you an example in terms of Cambrian Credit Union in north Wales engaging with this. It is still a proposal; it envisages in terms of the way forward community banks across Wales, but I'm sure this is going to be as a result of not only our investment, which came formerly from Ken Skates, to conduct that feasibility, but also the prospects for where it is most appropriate and needed to have a high-street bank access point for Cambria.

Luke Fletcher AS: With bank closures in our towns and villages across Wales being all too common, the vision presented by the team at Banc Cambria is an exciting one. For example, in my region, the constituency of Ogmore has just one bank left, and similar to what we've heard in Clwyd South as well. And, of course, in some constituencies they're at risk of disappearing altogether. The community-based model could have a wider application than just with banks, of course. Has the Minister given consideration to how we may be able to use the Banc Cambria model for other community-led businesses—in energy, for example—and what support will the Government be looking to provide?

Jane Hutt AC: And I very much appreciate that this is probably a next step. As the Member said, we need to establish Banc Cambria, we need to address the paucity, the devastation in terms of lack of bank branches. But I think it could be a model, couldn't it, and we will certainly be, I'm sure, building on that with your advice and support too.

Russell George AC: Can I first of all say this is certainly an issue that I've raised myself with successive Welsh Governments? I think I raised this first with Edwina Hart, so very supportive in terms of my position in terms of Banc Cambria and the Welsh Government's approach to community banking. I listened very carefully to the answers provided, Minister, but I think what people will want to know, especially where there are towns in Wales, in my own constituency, where there perhaps were three or four banks a few years ago and now there are none at all. I think they'll be keen to understand timescales and when we might actually see that first physical bank appear in that town again. [Interruption.] I know that past discussions—. I'm sure from past discussions—[Interruption.] Sorry; bear with me. Drew, I'm sorry—. I think, from past discussions, Minister, I think there's going to be an issue of a Banc Cambria where they've said that they're going to make a point of going into towns where there are no banks at all. So, I'd be very grateful, Minister, if you could perhaps put some timescales in terms of when we'll see that first physical bank appear in a town for the first time.

Jane Hutt AC: I welcome this broad cross-party support this afternoon for the creation of a community bank for Wales. It is tightly regulated, as Members know, the banking sector, so we really have to await the satisfactory conclusion of the regulatory assessment. That's about assurance for investors and future members of Banc Cambria. But what they do—their aim is to open up in the order of 30 new outlets over the next decade.

Thank you, Minister.

And, Russell George, you managed excellently to persevere with your questioning despite the noises off on your Zoom. Well done.

2. Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution

Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution are next, and the first question is from Jack Sargeant.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Promoting Social Justice through Legislation

Jack Sargeant AC: 1. What discussions has the Counsel General had with the legal sector on ways in which social justice could be promoted through legislation? OQ56672

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Jack Sargeant. I have regular discussions with the legal sector on a range of matters, including legislation relating to justice.

Jack Sargeant AC: I thank the Counsel General for that answer, and I'm very grateful for your obvious commitment—and long-standing commitment—to social justice. In your conversations with the legal profession in Wales, what references have been made to the legal aid cuts, and do you agree with me that the UK Government cuts mean it is far harder for most people, particularly working class people, to get justice in Wales and across the whole of the UK? And will you also, Counsel General, agree to meet with me and with my office to discuss this issue further?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, first of all, yes, I will be happy to meet with you and any other Members in respect of the issue of access to justice and the issues around legal aid. It's an issue which in previous Senedd sessions I've spoken on, and, of course, is a matter that very much engages the concerns, I think, of the judiciary and also of the Thomas commission. When legal aid was introduced in 1948, Viscount Simon, presenting the report, described it basically as an NHS of legal advice and support for the people. He said:
'I therefore commend this Report to the House with this simple reflection, that whatever the difficulties may be in the way of poverty, no citizen should fail to get the legal aid or advice which is so necessary to establish his or her full rights. I hold...that this is an essential reform in a true democracy'.
And I think that comment stands as much today as it did when NHS was in. What is unfortunate, I think, in some ways, is that the ethos of the purpose of legal advice and support is being reduced to an issue of cost rather than it is about fundamental empowerment of people within a democracy. This is an issue that's been raised. Lord Neuberger as president of the Supreme Court raised this particular issue, and basically said that:
'Cutting the cost of legal aid deprives the very people who most need the protection of the courts of the ability to get legal advice and representation.'
And another Supreme Court judge in 2018, Lord Wilson, said that:
'Even where it is required to continue to provide free legal aid, for example to defendants to criminal charges and to parents threatened with the removal of their children, the UK is dismantling it indirectly by setting rates of remuneration for the lawyers at levels so uncommercial that, reluctantly, most of them feel unable to do that work. Access to justice is under threat in the UK.'
And it has been for some time, and you only need to look at the figures over the past decade. In 2011, the real terms value of spending on legal aid in Wales was £128 million; the amount of spend on legal aid now is £80 million—a 37 per cent reduction. A reduction, in fact, compared with a 28 per cent reduction in England, and I think what that does is reflect the actual demand for legal support in Wales has not been so much within the criminal field, but it's been very much within the social arena. Effectively, we have now advice deserts. Welsh Government has invested enormous amounts of money—

Minister, I do ask my colleagues to be brief in their questions; I will also ask Ministers to be brief in their answers as well, please.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for that, Deputy Presiding Officer. I think, then, I'll just conclude on that particular question by basically saying that the advice and support that's put forward by Welsh Government is an attempt to repair the gap that exists at the moment, but certainly an unsatisfactory repair.

Mark Isherwood AC: Too many disabled people continue to suffer social injustice because of the barriers to access and inclusion placed in their way at all levels of society. On 24 February this year, the Senedd voted in support of my Member's legislative proposal for a British Sign Language—or BSL—Bill. As a member of the cross-party group on deaf issues in the Senedd since 2003, and as chair of the cross-party group on disability in previous Senedd terms, this is an issue I've long been involved with in both north and south Wales. My proposed Bill would make provision to encourage the use of BSL in Wales, and improve access to education and services in BSL. As you know, however, the vote here in February only noted my legislative proposal, and a Bill therefore needs to be successfully proposed in this Parliament so that legislation can go forward, commencing with a wide public consultation. What discussions have you had, therefore, or will you have with the legal sector on ways in which the objectives of my proposed Bill could be promoted through legislation?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. Obviously, the issue of individual Members' legislation is a matter for you, and it's a matter for the Senedd. What I'm keen to do is to actually have discussions with the legal profession collectively about the way in which we are able to actually provide the advice and the support that give support to our communities, all those who are actually the most vulnerable and in need. And I'd also draw your attention to the fact that it's the Conservative Government's proposals that, effectively, have excluded legal aid from all those issues of welfare and social areas that used to exist many years ago that now would probably be the substance of support to some of the objectives that you actually have. But I'm more than happy to have further discussions on that issue.

Expenditure on Justice

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 2. What discussions has the Counsel General had with the Minister for Finance and Local Government on the effectiveness of the Welsh Government's expenditure on justice? OQ56703

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for that question. I've had an initial meeting with the Minister for Finance and Local Government to discuss budgets for my portfolio responsibilities. As the Thomas commission makes clear, expenditure on justice would be more effective if there were greater devolution, allowing us to take a whole-system approach.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch. One of the oddest things about our devolution arrangement is that almost 40 per cent of the total funding for justice in Wales comes from Wales, despite us having no control in this policy field. To coin a phrase, it's like having the worst of both worlds. As the 'Justice in Wales for the People of Wales' report said,
'Justice should be at the heart of government.'
Can the Counsel General please update this Senedd on discussions with counterparts in Westminster to remedy this anomaly?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, there will be discussions that will be taking place in respect of those anomalies, and it's certainly my intention to pursue those and to have a number of meetings to explore the issues of devolution of justice, the issues of devolution of policing, in particular, as well. These are matters that have been raised on this floor many, many times. I think the devolution of police and the devolution of justice are an inevitability, because the logic is there. I think it is unfortunate that in many cases it has been turned as though it is somehow some sort of territorial matter, whereas the real issue about justice and the devolution of justice is how it is part and parcel of our social and economic policy, our social foundations. Justice is a part of that, and it is one of the key levers of being able to fulfil the social objectives that we have.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

I now call on party spokespeople to question the Minister. Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. What discussions did the Welsh Government have with the UK Government regarding the second edition of 'Reforming our Union', prior to its publication yesterday?

Mick Antoniw AC: The 'Reforming our Union' paper was made available in its original form to UK Government, and the reforming the UK—the most recent version that has been published has also been made available to UK Government.

Darren Millar AC: So, from that answer, Minister, I gather that you simply shared the document with them, rather than actually had any meaningful engagement with the UK Government prior to you actually publishing that document. Do you accept that, on the one hand, you can't bang on about the need for mutual respect between two Governments when you aren't giving the Government of the United Kingdom a heads-up when you're publishing proposals that affect the United Kingdom and talk about your agenda for its future? Why do you think that it's okay for you to publish such documents without any engagement when the very first people to carp if such a document had ever been produced by the UK Government would be Welsh Government Ministers themselves, suggesting that it would have been an act of disrespect? Do you accept that you were wrong not to have a discussion prior to the publication of these documents and not to engage with UK Government Ministers on this matter?

Mick Antoniw AC: I think the Member has very distorted the situation, because every issue that is in 'Reforming our Union', the updated document, is one that is raised time and time again at inter-governmental meetings and with UK Government Ministers. There is absolutely not a single thing there that has not been raised time and time again with UK Government. One of the reasons why it has actually been published is because of the absolute necessity to put this down in writing, and to put it together collectively as a reflection of all those issues that have been raised, that the First Minister has raised, that other Ministers raised, time and time again with the UK Government, but, unfortunately, with very, very little response.

Darren Millar AC: You say that it's an absolute necessity to put these things in writing and to publish this document—a document that is not dissimilar, of course, to the first edition of the document that was published two years ago. Why on earth does the Welsh Government think that now is an appropriate time to be discussing the future of the union, when we've just come through a very difficult period with the pandemic, we've got people waiting—one in three people on a waiting list waiting over a year for their treatment—when we've got schoolchildren having to play catch-up with their education? Don't you think that these are the matters that the people of Wales want the Welsh Government to get to grips with, rather than talking about tinkering with the constitution, which has no significant impact on their lives whatsoever at this present time? Don't you think it's about time you started paying attention to the real issues of the day?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, therein lies the problem, you see. I fundamentally disagree with the approach that you've adopted. I think the constitution is absolutely fundamental in what we can do, how we fulfil our manifestos, how we can deliver services, and how we can actually take decisions that really impact on people's lives. And the fact of the matter seems to be that the Welsh Conservatives, or the Conservative Party in Wales, are actually living in denial at the moment. There is a problem. There is a problem that is actually recognised across party; it was recognised by the interparliamentary forum, with many significant Conservative Members of Parliament within that, and representatives of Parliaments across the UK. That recognised that there is actually a crisis in our constitutional structure, that it is not working. If it is not working, then it means that it is impacting adversely on the people and on the way in which services and powers are exercised. So, it does impact on people's lives. It has a very direct effect on people's lives, and it is really disappointing that the Conservative Party in Wales is so in denial, because the way of resolving any particular problem is, first of all, to recognise that there is a problem. And there is a problem, and 'Reforming the Union' is a document that seeks to actually offer a way of resolving those problems, rather than them just being dismissed in the way in which the Member is doing.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson.

Darren Millar AC: I don't—

You've had your three.

Darren Millar AC: I haven't actually; I've had two.

I thought it was three.

Darren Millar AC: I've had two.

Mick Antoniw AC: It seemed like three. [Laughter.]

Can we check? Because I'm sure you had one very quick one and then that was answered quickly. [Interruption.] You had a very quick one at the very beginning, Darren.

Darren Millar AC: Did I really?

Yes, I'm sorry to say.

Darren Millar AC: You'll have to await the punchline from the next instalment. [Laughter.]

You did actually ask three, because you sat down on three occasions.

Darren Millar AC: Are you sure I've had three? [Interruption.] I don't believe you, but I'll check.

If I'm incorrect, Darren, I'll apologise afterwards, but I'm pretty sure there were three.

Darren Millar AC: It's all right; I'm prepared to accept it.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhys abOwen.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Hopefully, that means I have four now. [Laughter.] Diolch yn fawr—

No.

Rhys ab Owen AS: —Dirprwy Lywydd. Rhun ap Iorwerth stated yesterday where he thought the plan unravelled—the basic problem of you protecting the union first and putting the people of Wales second. But, today, I want to concentrate on the implementation of your plan, and whether it does border on the verge of utopia, as quoted by Martin Shipton this morning in The Western Mail.
Firstly, I want to concentrate on the UK Government. The Secretary of State—.

Rhys ab Owen AS: The Secretary of State said immediately that he rejected your plan. We've had a robust argument from Mr Millar today against your plan. It will be impossible to deliver this without the UK Government. The Home Office refused to give evidence to the Silk commission, to their own commission. So, how are we going to get the UK Government to become part of this plan? Are you reliant on a Labour Government in Westminster being elected again, because, if you look at elections and by-elections, that doesn't seem possible any time soon? Thank you.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, you raise a very, very valid question. It's one we're asked many times. What do you do when you're in an impasse, where you, effectively, have a UK Government that seems to be oblivious to all the protestations, all the representation, all attempts at engagement that are made, and then the consequences of that are a deterioration in relationship?
Well, look, I think the first thing is this: Governments do not exist for eternity. Governments do change, politics is volatile, and political momenta actually change. So, I don't rule out, firstly, the importance that there are areas where we can make improvements, where there can be engagement, where there are areas of, for example, justice, that we can either deal with in respect of our own powers or through engagement. There are areas where we are engaging at the moment with UK Government in terms of constitutional change, and there have been certain other areas in terms of, for example, the delivery of justice.
But I take this view: when you are in such an impasse, when you recognise that there is a problem that the UK is on the verge of fragmentation—we see events in Scotland, and we see events that are in Northern Ireland, and we even see the pressures that are building up between the central Government in England and the regions of England—where do you actually go? It seems to me that the way to go is to actually engage with the people of Wales on the basis that sovereignty lies with the people of Wales, to build up a consensus and a momentum for support, for political support, but also to find out precisely what the people of Wales actually want in terms of their future: what should happen within Wales, should certain events occur—what should be the nature of that relationship? Because I believe that consensus, if it can be built as a result of a proper process of engagement with the people of Wales, is the strongest force that Welsh Government can have in arguing for and ensuring that there is change.
Mark my words: change is coming. The question is managing change in a particular way that is most beneficial to the people of Wales. But it will be something that will be determined here in Wales. There may be commissions. There is a commission of the Labour Party that's taking place. I'm sure there will be other commissions and events, and our process, which will be a Welsh process, will be one that will feed into any processes where there can be benefit to the people of Wales, but will also seek to build alliances with those who also see the need for constitutional change across the UK.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. But there is a second problem, isn't there? It's not just the UK Government that's not listening. Your own parliamentary Labour Party isn't listening either. The commitment to devolved justice disappeared from the 2019 manifesto; in 2020, after the publication of the commission on justice report, Chris Bryant, in an argument in Westminster, said he was against devolution of justice, and he has previously said that devolution isn't a devolved matter; the shadow Home Secretary has spoken against the devolution of justice in the past; the leader of the opposition has been completely silent about it. How will Welsh Government get their own side, even, to back you with this plan?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, we work on the basis of the Welsh Labour manifesto that has been supported by the Welsh Labour Party and which has been endorsed in a Welsh general election. The UK Labour Party has set up its own commission, and has adopted a mandate for that, which I think is one of the most radical constitutional positions, certainly for generations, and that is a process that I think leaves all options that are open in terms of the reformation or the steps that need to be taken in terms of the constitutional issues that are emerging within the UK. So, we will feed into that. We will present our own position as a Welsh Labour Party and in respect of the mandate we have, and also in terms of what lessons are actually learned from the conversation that we're going to have with the Welsh people.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you. May I raise a third problem that you have—not just the UK Government, not just your own parliamentary group in Westminster, but also the rest of the UK Governments? To reform the union you will have to have support from not only the Westminster Government, but also the SNP Government in Scotland, the Northern Ireland Executive—wherever power lies there—and also the English mayors. So, what discussions have you had with other Governments and the mayors? And do you really want us to believe that the SNP Government is going to support these proposals? So, Counsel General, when these problems become too much and when the plan fails, what's plan B? Thank you.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, the SNP in Scotland, if we take that first, of course, has its own mandate, and it's a genuine mandate that comes from the people of Scotland as a result of the recent Scottish Parliament election. You will also know that, of course, where there have been common interests between Welsh Governments and Scottish Governments, there has been very close collaboration on a whole variety of constitutional issues. I have met on a number of occasions with my counterparts in the Scottish Government to talk about some of these issues, and, where there is common ground, we will work collectively to achieve the objectives that we have in terms of the benefit of the people of Wales, as they will do within Scotland as well.
I think, in terms of the regional mayors and so on—I think it is very important that there are discussions with those. Those are forms of devolved government; a very different and perhaps a very ad hoc form of devolved government—very different I think to what Kilbrandon, in the 1974 report, actually envisaged, and therein lies perhaps the nub of a much deeper problem as to why we are where we are now. But, as I said in my last answer, I think within Wales what we have to do is to engage and to be clear about where the consensus lies in Wales for change, to build on that consensus and to engage with all those others who would share a common interest in the constitutional reform. As I've said, I think constitutional reform is an inevitability. Unfortunately, there are consequences—there are adverse consequences, if it is not dealt with in a progressive and in a cohesive way. And the most disappointing feature about it at the moment was, in the publication of the reform in the UK Government—is that the UK Government appears to have buried its head in the sand on the issues that really are facing us all at the moment.

The United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2021

Alun Davies AC: 3. Will the Counsel General make a statement on the Welsh Government's legal assessment of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2021? OQ56679

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for that question. The UK Internal Market Act 2021 undermines the long-established powers of the Senedd and Welsh Ministers in matters within devolved competence. In the challenge we brought to the Act, we have been granted permission to appeal. The Court of Appeal notes that it raises important issues of principle on the constitutional relationship between the Senedd and the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Counsel General, for that response. The question of course was framed before we had that happy news from the court. I'd be grateful if you could confirm that you will provide this Parliament with regular updates on—[Inaudible.]—progresses. My question to you—[Inaudible.]—is this: we've debated and discussed the internal market Act on a number of different occasions during its progress through the United Kingdom Parliament and we debated how that will impact our powers here in this Parliament. I'd be grateful if you, as a Minister, were able to provide us with regular updates in the form of a written statement, perhaps, on how those powers are being used, because I think, in terms of the debate we're having at the moment, it would be useful for all sides of the debate to understand the specific impact of the Act on the governance of this United Kingdom, as well as the general impact in terms of the balance of powers. So, it would be useful for us to understand the specific powers that are being used, what they're being used for and what their impact is having on the powers that are held in his place.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, thank you for that. And, firstly, on the statement on the legal action itself, we of course await a court hearing. I did issue—. As soon as I had the notification, I issued a written statement, which you've had, to keep Members informed, and, of course, I will update, as appropriate, as time proceeds.
On the issue of the powers of the internal market Act, yes, I think the request you make is a perfectly reasonable one, that we need to be alert to the way in which those powers are being used, and powers, in fact, in a slightly broader range around the internal market Act—not just those, but the way in which, out of the post-Brexit legislation, the issues of the way in which the emergence of increased concurrent powers, the way in which despatch-box agreements, are being used to, or have been used to, actually bypass sometimes the Sewel agreement, the actual status of Sewel and so on.
But the most recent example, of course, that we're all aware of is when the UK Government published its plan for Wales—a plan that, in fact, breaks all the commitments that were given that Wales would not be a penny worse off as a result of leaving the EU. That was action that was taken, using the powers of the internal market Act, without any engagement with Welsh Government whatsoever, despite the very clear mandate we have in respect of the devolution statutes, the intention of Parliament itself in terms of what the powers and responsibilities of this Parliament actually are. So, that was the first major exercise of those powers, which is ongoing, but there are many more, and it is my intention to comprehensively look at not only the internal market Act but all those other pieces of legislation where there are issues of their relationship to the status and integrity of this place and the way in which they impact on our ability to deliver for the people of Wales, particularly in the areas that we're very concerned about—in terms of food standards, in terms of environmental standards, which are clearly areas that are likely to be impacted, potentially, by UK Government trade deals.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I thank the Counsel General for that answer and the written statement that he has made on the issue. However, Deputy Presiding Officer, his view has been denied by the UK Government, who argue that nothing within the Act changes the legislative competence of the Senedd. And the divisional court ruled that the Government's attempts to overturn the Act using courts rather than the political system were inappropriate, and his predecessor's failed attempt at the court case has already cost an untold amount of civil service time plus £87,458 of taxpayers' money so far. Will he confirm to the Senedd that the Welsh Government will now stop their attempts to try to re-fight the referendum and listen to the will of the people of Wales, who, I will remind him and the Member who brought this question here today, voted to leave the European Union, and not waste more taxpayers' money on appealing this again, and start focusing on the things that matter to the people of my region of South Wales East and Wales, like the recovery of the economy from the pandemic, improving Wales's education and driving down NHS waiting lists?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, I thank the Member for the question. I suspect the question was dated before she or her adviser had the opportunity to actually read the written statement that I made, because the appeal was lodged and the appeal has actually been successful, and there will be a hearing on that appeal. And it's very interesting that the appeal court judge recognised the significant constitutional issue that it's raised, which is why that leave was actually granted.
In terms of no powers having been taken away, the fact of the matter is that that is just rankly untrue—for one example, the issue of state aid, which is now a reserved matter but wasn't previously. Now, that is really significant in terms of the way the Welsh Government can exercise its economic powers. But I make the further point to you again in terms of what is important: you're right, when you go onto the doorstep with people, the first thing they don't ask about is the constitution. But if, for example, you go to the people of Wales and you say, 'What do you think about community safety? How safe do you think your community is?' They will start talking about, 'Well, we need to see the police here, we need to make sure there's better engagement', et cetera, and then you have to explain actually that, of course, policing isn't devolved, and people don't understand that. When you talk about the fact that one of our objectives is in terms of equality and social justice and you find out that equal opportunities is a reserved matter. There is an illogicality to what is there, and I'm afraid the Member has fallen into the trap, along with her colleagues, of putting their head in the sand and ignoring what is actually happening in reality and the opportunities that exist to address some of these anomalies.

Delyth Jewell AC: Counsel General, you've said that you will now bring forward an appeal to challenge this flagrant attack on Senedd competence. From day one, Plaid Cymru identified the threat to our hard-won democratic powers, and the reality is that there is a supermajority here in this Parliament to extend those powers, but the Westminster Government is denying that majority and that mandate. Their actions now are so blatant that even Labour Ministers here who once defended the union are questioning its capacity to deliver for the people of Wales. So, Counsel General, given that you are announcing a national conversation about our future powers, including, of course, the implications of the internal market Act, will you confirm that all options will be discussed in that process, including a contingency plan for the break-up of the UK in the event of Scottish independence or Irish unification?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, the precise parameters and the actual nature of the engagement in the conversation that are going to take place have got to be ones that are open. You can't say, 'We're going to have a conversation with the people of Wales about the future of Wales and about these issues,' and say to people, 'By the way, you can't discuss this, you can't discuss that.' I think I have a good idea where some of the consensus may lie, but we will test that when we actually have the conversation. For me, what is going to be important in it is that it engages not only with organised society. I'm very pleased, for example, that Wales TUC are going to have their own commission on the issue of workplace rights and where those powers should particularly lie. I think that is a very significant step forward, being led by Shavanah Taj, the new regional secretary of the Wales TUC. But I think it is also important that we engage with those organisations that have real roots within our communities, but also we have to look at the ways in which we engage with those peoples within our society who don't engage, who have basically given up on the political system. I've said several times—and I'll perhaps finalise on this particular point—we have a crisis of democracy in our country when 40 per cent of people don't vote in UK Westminster elections, 50 per cent don't vote in Senedd elections and 60 per cent don't vote in local government elections. That is a crisis of democracy in my view, and one of the purposes of this conversation is going to be to actually re-engage with the people, to take every step that we can to work out ways in which there can be empowerment of individuals of communities, and also the governance of Wales.

The Constitutional Future of Wales

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 4. Will the Counsel General make a statement on proposals for a standing commission to consider the constitutional future of Wales? OQ56688

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. We are working rapidly to make the commission a reality. We want it to lead a conversation with the people of Wales to find a consensus among citizens and civic society about devolution and the constitution. I will be making further announcements about the commission next month.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: We welcome that statement and the focus very much on that wider civic engagement with people out there in Wales. If I can turn, as well, to proposition 20 of the document 'Reforming our Union: Shared Governance in the UK', the second edition, it says there,
'It continues to be our view'—
the Welsh Government view—
'that future constitutional reform needs to be considered from a UK-wide perspective, but',
it goes on,
'there is as yet no commitment from the UK government for that national debate across the UK which is clearly needed.'
So, could I ask the Counsel General how does he see that the work here in Wales may influence the wider constitutional debate in the UK? And what specific actions will he take to persuade the UK Government, or in the absence of a willing partner there for now, then the Parliaments of the UK—including the two chambers in Westminster—and the burgeoning mayoralties across the UK to build that case, that a constitutional convention on a UK-wide basis is needed in addition to the work that may be carried out here in Wales?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you very much for that very thoughtful question, and very difficult question to answer, certainly in the time that the Deputy Presiding Officer is going to allow me. We argued for many years about a convention—a convention being a mechanism for actually bringing all these issues together and deciding on the future of the UK. What is the purpose of the UK? How should it exist? What should its basic principles be? Should it exist, even? So, that issue of a convention has been argued for a long time. One of the problems, to some extent, as you've identified, is that the window of opportunity for such a convention begins to dissipate, particularly when you have moves as they are within Scotland, when you see the problems that are now emerging in Northern Ireland, and also even some of the disagreements that have taken place within England itself. The first thing is there has to be a process that is of ongoing engagement. There has to be a process where we continually seek to engage with the UK Government, and we will continue to make every endeavour to engage in a rational and reasoned way with the UK Government.
I think the point that you have to make out, of course, is that if you have this level of challenge ahead, not tackling it causes problems to increase, and the risk of the fragmentation and break-up of the UK, as the First Minister has said on a number of occasions, is closer than it has ever been in his lifetime, and it's certainly closer than it has ever been in my lifetime. As I say, I think we have to form alliances with those within all parties who recognise that, and I do take some confidence—and you will know from your own involvement in the inter-parliamentary forum, that I was also then involved in—from the actual scale of common agreement that there is across parties, including senior Conservative figures, such as Bernard Jenkin, who was chair of the UK's influential Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, and across the various Parliaments and the Northern Ireland Assembly as well, when we were able to engage with it, that the current arrangements aren't working, they're not fit for purpose, they are aggravated now by the constitutional change situation that we're in as a result of leaving the EU, and if it's not fit for purpose, then you've got to address it, and the question is how do you actually address it.
So, we will keep calling for that convention, because that is a way of bringing everyone together to actually try to address this in a rational way. But, in the absence of that, we will take our own lead in terms of determining where Wales is. What must happen within Wales is that any constitutional reform must not be something that becomes the diktat of any commission that's based in London or any other part of the UK other than Wales. We have to determine our own future, and, as I've said, I think last week, for me, we have a change in sovereignty from the situation we had when devolution was first established. Then it was the devolution of power to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but since the creation of legislatures, sovereignty now lies with the people and it lies with those Parliaments, and the concept of shared sovereignty is, I believe, the only one that has any credibility and has got to be the basis, I think, for all constitutional reforms for the future.

Phosphate Levels in Riverine Special Areas of Conservation

Cefin Campbell MS: 5. What discussions has the Counsel General had with the legal sector regarding the impact of legislation and guidance on phosphate levels in riverine special areas of conservation? OQ56692

Mick Antoniw AC: I thank you for that question. I have to say, the subject matter is not one I am deeply familiar with, but I can say that the Welsh Government and NRW are committed to tackling pollution in Wales’s nine river special areas of conservation. I have not had any discussions with the legal sector on this matter to date.

Cefin Campbell MS: Thank you for that response. I understand that the regulations that impact on rivers in special areas of conservation emanate from the 2017 UK Government conservation of habitats regulations. Despite that, many rural areas feel very frustrated about the way in which this guidance has been introduced, with scant consultation or discussion prior to its implementation with local authorities and housing developers. The planning guidance raises many questions for local authorities, particularly with regard to their ability to fulfil their housing allocations as outlined in their local development plans, and some development plans have now been postponed as a result of this, which does cause all sorts of problems.
In terms of unlocking some of these development sites, there will be a need for confirmation of investment from Dŵr Cymru to treat phosphate levels in those waste water treatment sites that serve the areas in question. Unfortunately, this isn't likely to be announced until 2022 and won't be implemented until 2025. This, of course, is going to cause further delay in the planning process. So, what discussions have you had with Government Ministers on the need to look at the legislative framework in this particular area to ensure that discussions do take place between the major stakeholders and bodies in Wales to get to grips with the concerns that have been expressed? Thank you.

Mick Antoniw AC: I'm certainly aware of the concerns, and those concerns have been raised in this Chamber in debates on a number of occasions. I'm grateful to you for refocusing on those and raising those again.
There have been a number of ongoing discussions that are there. It's not appropriate for me, really, to intrude on the portfolio of another Minister that has specific responsibility for this area. I know the Welsh Government has established the SAC management oversight group to engage with the relevant stakeholders and to develop and deliver measures needed to help improve phosphate levels in Wales. Dŵr Cymru have also confirmed that they've arranged to meet local authorities on these issues, and I also understand that Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water's developer services team are in contact with local authority planning officers, and they're providing information on phosphate capability. I'm probably limited in actually being able to say anything further specifically on regulations. There is a judicial review that is being dealt with, and it would not be appropriate for me to comment further in that respect.

Question 6, Rhys ab Owen.

The Commission on Justice in Wales

Rhys ab Owen AS: Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I did have a fourth question after all.

Rhys ab Owen AS: 6. What's the timetable for implementing the recommendations of the Commission on Justice in Wales? OQ56678

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. Our programme for government makes clear this Government's continued commitment to pursuing the case made by the commission for the devolution of policing and justice to Wales. The newly constituted Cabinet sub-committee on justice will set our agenda. I will chair that committee, which will meet for the first time on 8 July.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you very much for that response, and I'm very pleased that you are to meet on 8 July. One of the major problems raised by the commission on justice was the lack of co-operation with the justice system in Wales, and there was a clear recommendation to establish a law council for Wales. What's stopping that from happening, and when will it be established?

Mick Antoniw AC: Firstly, thank you for that and also thank you for, obviously, the very significant input you've made into the Thomas commission work and the report. I will just make this comment that that report, as I think I said at the time, is a report in terms of quality of international quality. Perhaps that's nothing less than you would expect from Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, but also the rest of the panel of Welsh expertise within the judicial and legal sector that I think contributed to what is a very important analysis of the judicial system and issues around access to justice and administrative law, and that will have an impact for a number of years.
In respect of the law council for Wales, I can tell you that I have been having various discussions around that. Work is ongoing on that. We've had engagement with the Law Society, who've agreed to act as a secretariat for the establishment of a law council for Wales. And I'm hoping that in the not too distant future, there will be a more formal announcement of the establishment of a law council for Wales. The law council for Wales, of course, will be independent of Government; that is extremely important. I can certainly give this assurance, though, to the extent that the law council for Wales, when it is established, will want me engaged, I will give all the support and encouragement to engage with it as they wish, because I see it as a very important development within the justice sector within Wales, and the development of the Welsh judicial system.

Photo Identification Cards for Voting

Carolyn Thomas AS: 7. What representations has the Counsel General made to the UK Government regarding plans to require photo identification cards in order to vote? OQ56691

Mick Antoniw AC: I have made clear to the UK Government that the Welsh Government does not wish to see voter ID required for devolved elections. We are concerned about the potential operational impact of this, along with other UK Government proposals, on the administration and accessibility of devolved elections, and on voter experience.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you for the answer, Minister. I am deeply concerned about the impact regarding voter ID and the impact it will have on the electorate in my region of North Wales. The move by the Tory Government in Westminster will very likely suppress electoral turnout, particularly amongst most disadvantaged communities. Putting up unnecessary obstacles to participating in our democracy in this way should be avoided at all costs. So, does the Minister agree with me that elections should be as open, accountable and accessible as possible, and will the Welsh Government work to ensure that photo ID is not required for Senedd and local elections here in Wales? Diolch.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for that very insightful question, and a very important question in terms of the elections Bill, which has, I think, just been published, the details of it we've only just seen. But I will say that there have been quadrilateral discussions on this; I have engaged with UK Government Ministers on this, and I have a further bilateral meeting imminently to discuss aspects of the legislation and its relevance.
The first thing I think I would say is there is a very different approach from the Welsh Government to the UK Government in elections. Everyone wants to see free and fair elections, but we want to see those elections as open as possible, as transparent as possible, as accessible as possible. We want to see anyone who would like to vote to not only be able to vote as easily as possible and as fairly as possible, but for their vote to be counted, so we're looking at a number of issues around the election system. I have to say that our approach is one of accessibility and openness, and I do not agree with the approach that's being adopted by the UK Government for the introduction of ID cards. Now, the implication may well be that in respect of parliamentary elections there will be a divergence, that they may well have a different process. I will put the arguments that we have as to why we would not like to see that in Wales. It does have implications for the administration of elections within Wales, but of course the UK parliamentary elections are a reserved matter. As far as the Senedd elections are concerned, and as far as our local government elections are concerned, we have no intention whatsoever of introducing or giving support to the concept of ID cards.
ID cards: the logic that's being put behind it is that it is about dealing with voter fraud. Well, in terms of the number of convictions for voter fraud that occurred in the 2019 general election, there were four convictions and two cautions in the whole of the United Kingdom. There is no evidential base for that particular move, and it can only leave you with the one question as to why it's actually being introduced, similar to measures that are also being introduced in parts of America that are being promoted there, and there is a very strong suggestion that this is more about voter suppression than it is about free and fair and open elections. As I say, I will be arguing the Welsh Government's case and putting the position of the Welsh Government in those discussions, and I will update this Chamber and I will update the Senedd in due course when we know more.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, proving that we are who we say we are is not so unusual, whether it is our age to buy a drink or a firework from a shop, or proof to open a bank account, or a driver's licence to hire a car, it is part of modern life and something we are all used to. If it is good enough for those activities, then why not for something as important as voting? Minister, I know that those on the political left see this as an affront to our democracy, when in fact it is to preserve and protect the democratic process itself that photo identification is now being considered. If you are against the idea of voters proving who they are, what other steps do you think should be taken to ensure the robustness of our democratic process?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. I think you actually put the question in exactly the wrong way, from reverse. The question is: if you want to impose restrictions and checks and balances of all sorts, and you could go much further, then you have to say, 'Well, there has got to be a reason to do it.' Yes, we all want to see a free, fair, open and robust electoral system. I believe we have a free, fair, open and robust electoral system. So, I can only then ask the question: if there is no evidential base to actually make a change that will make it more difficult for people to vote, that may place additional obstacles on people to vote, why is this being done?

And finally, question 8, Sioned Williams.

Home-to-school Transport

Sioned Williams MS: 8. What representations has the Counsel General made on behalf of the Welsh Government regarding the appropriateness of current legislation relating to home-to-school transport? OQ56697

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. Learner travel and the underlying legislation was identified for review by the previous Government. The pandemic, however, impacted the completion of that process. This is now a matter that will be considered by the Minister and Deputy Minister for climate change, within the context of a new programme for government.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch. I'm aware that there were discussions held in the last Senedd term concerning the appropriateness of the current legislation with regard to home-to-school transport. The home-to-school transport legislation currently in place does not provide free transport to primary school children if they live within two miles of their school, or within three miles for a secondary school pupil.
Now, we've all heard of cases, I'm sure, across this Chamber, from our constituents where children are having to walk long distances to school, often in the dark in winter months and in the rain, sometimes for over an hour, as in a case brought to my attention recently in Neath Port Talbot. Unfortunately, there's also an issue of social justice here at play. Whilst pupils from middle-class backgrounds can often benefit from a lift to school from their parents, or pay for spare seats on local authority transport, pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds don't always have that luxury and often can't afford to pay for private bus passes or for normal fares. The system seems unfair and I think it needs changing. Have you therefore held discussions with Ministers of the Welsh Government around this issue? Do you believe that there is a need and a will to change legislation in this area? Diolch.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, the issue of the legislation and its adequacy is clearly a matter that's under review. The Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 has had a number of representations since and, of course, there have been a lot of demographic changes as well. The Measure set out the legal framework specifically related to travel and transport, and there's correspondence not only from Members of the Senedd, but also from the Welsh Language Commissioner, from members of the public and from the Children's Commissioner for Wales for a review of the Measure. So, that review, as I said, has started. It's not completed, but it's under way, and the relevant Minister will, of course, be reporting on the outcome of that review in due course.

Thank you, Minister. We will now suspend proceedings to allow changeovers in the Chamber. If you are leaving the Chamber, please do so promptly. The bell will be rung two minutes before proceedings restart. Any Members who are arriving after a changeover should wait until then before entering the Chamber.

Plenary was suspended at 15:12.

The Senedd reconvened at 15:21, with the Deputy Presiding Officer in the Chair.

3. Questions to the Senedd Commission

Item 3, questions to the Senedd Commission. All questions are to be answered by the Llywydd. Question 1, Rhys ab Owen.

Protecting the Senedd

Rhys ab Owen AS: 1. Will the Commission make a statement on efforts to protect the Senedd to ensure that Members and staff are safe? OQ56682

We have a range of security measures in place to protect Members and staff. We work closely with South Wales Police, who provide an armed presence, we have access to other security and intelligence services, and we do background checks on all pass holders. Security officials from all UK legislatures keep in regular contact to discuss arrangements and concerns. Our security officers provide regular security briefings, including one-to-one advice, and we advise and support Members and their constituency offices on security matters.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you very much, Llywydd. It was good to see the public gallery open yesterday, and hopefully other areas of the Senedd will be able to reopen to the public soon. What steps has the Commission taken to ensure that the Senedd estate is safe, in relation toCOVID, for all building users?

This is a public building. The Senedd belongs to the people of Wales, and the people of Wales must have access to their Senedd. We've ensured, over the past year, that our work as a Senedd is accessible in a safe way throughout the COVID pandemic by ensuring that that access is available online. But, of course, we want to reach a situation where people again are part of our estate here, not just us as Members and staff members. So, we will take the specific steps, when safe to do so, to ensure increasing use of the estate, but we have to do that within the current recommendations, social distancing in particular, to ensure the safety of our staff, our Members and any visitors to the estate.

Job Sharing

Sioned Williams MS: 2. Will the Commission make a statement on the introduction of job-sharing arrangements for Members of the Senedd? OQ56696

The work conducted during the fifth Senedd by the expert panel on Assembly electoral reform and the Committee on Senedd Electoral Reform highlighted a range of benefits of job sharing in the Senedd, including the potential to improve diversity within our Parliament. The expert panel and committee also set out the legal and practical challenges involving democratic accountability that would need to be overcome to allow for job sharing for Members of the Senedd. Introducing job sharing arrangements for Members would require legislative changes, as well as public awareness and understanding of how elected representatives would undertake their role.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you. We know that there are a number of barriers for groups that aren't sufficiently represented, such as women, from standing for elected office. The long hours can be difficult to deal with, particularly in light of childcare responsibilities, caring responsibilities or other responsibilities. As you've mentioned, during the last term of the Senedd, two reports recommended that job sharing should be allowed if that was openly explained to constituents, and that it should be cost neutral. The Senedd committee on electoral reform called for a commitment to take legislative steps early in the sixth Senedd to reform our legislature and to strengthen our democracy in Wales. How do you see this agenda being developed on a cross-party basis, and what time kind of timetable do you anticipate before legislation is brought forward?

Thank you for that question. The fact that the question has been asked, and other matters this week, have reminded us of the interest that there is in job sharing to promote diversity. Looking back at the work of the committee on electoral reform, one of the recommendations made by that committee was for the sixth Senedd, early on in its term, to be establishing a cross-party group to look at the practical steps that needed to be taken to promote job sharing. Job sharing can mean sharing as a Member of the Senedd and the barriers that you've referred to—legislative barriers—and some of the issues that would need to be overcome, but also, of course, job sharing as we've already discussed this week in terms of some of the functions within the Senedd where there is no need for legislative change but there is a need for detailed consideration of how that can be achieved. In terms of a timescale, as you requested, the recommendation of the committee on electoral reform mentioned that we need to take swift steps to establish that cross-party group to look at the next steps. I will be discussing across parties to ensure that we look at the steps that do need to be taken, and I will do that early on during the term of the Senedd.

Mike Hedges AC: My question really is about looking at job sharing for Members at the Senedd. You, Presiding Officer, and the Deputy Presiding Officer, effectively job share controlling Senedd proceedings. Will the Commission look at allowing job sharing for other posts, such as committee Chairs and commissioners? I heard what you said in the answer to the last question, but I think that this is something that doesn't even need a change in Standing Orders; it's just something that perhaps we ought to look at, and be allowed to test it. I don't know if it's going to work; it might be a complete and utter disaster, in which case, you can change back relatively easily. If the first thing we do to test out job sharing is have two people standing for election, and it turns out to be a disaster, we've got five years of suffering with it for being a disaster.

Thank you for your views on that. I agree. As I answered to Sioned Williams, there are a number of various roles that this Senedd has that could look at how they could be undertaken via job sharing. Some of those are, as you say, Mike Hedges, within current legislation, and would require just changes to Standing Orders, and also some clarity on the procedures involved. The committee on electoral reform proposed a working group to be set up early in the term of this Senedd to look at the various aspects of job sharing that could work—and we do need to remember this—for the purpose of increasing diversity. That reminds me, of course, that, on reflecting on how we elected Chairs yesterday—and I congratulate all Chairs that were elected yesterday—two thirds of our Chairs were men elected yesterday, and 100 per cent of them were white, and that's neither reflective of Wales, or indeed, reflective of this Senedd, and therefore, it reminds us how we need to work to ensure that we are promoting diversity in every aspect of our work.

The Real Living Wage

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 3. Will the Commission make a statement on the payment of the real living wage to Senedd employees and contractors? OQ56689

The Living Wage Foundation rate for the United Kingdom, excluding London is currently £9.50 per hour. The minimum entry pay for Commission employees is currently £10.50 per hour. The previous Commission agreed that, with effect from April 2020, all Commission contract staff should be paid in line with the minimum entry pay for Commission staff. Therefore, the minimum pay for all contractors is also £10.50 per hour.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I welcome that answer, and I pay tribute and acknowledge the work of other Members in the fifth Senedd who pushed this agenda very, very hard indeed there, because of the importance of our democratic heart here of Wales as a nation, leading by example.
I wonder if I could ask whether there is more now that we can and should do to lead by example, either in omissions that we might not currently be aware of that we can cast our mind to, or alternatively, by actually sharing the experience of an institution like this with others in how we do actually promote the real living wage, not simply to the employees, but further afield, deep down beyond the organisation to everybody who touches this organisation?

Yes, indeed, and I think we can be proud as an employer that we do now employ all our staff and our contracted staff above the real living wage, and I pay tribute in particular here to Joyce Watson who has championed this in the last Senedd, and in the Commission. And, I think that, hopefully, we can think about how our example here of working with our contractors to ensure that the real living wage, above the real living wage, is paid to contract employees shows that, by discussion, we can get to a place where nobody working for us, with us here in the Senedd, is at a disadvantage, whether they are directly employed, employed by Members of the Senedd, or employed by our contractors.

The White Ribbon Campaign

Jack Sargeant AC: 4. What is the Commission doing to support the white ribbon campaign? OQ56673

In the past, the Commission has supported the White Ribbon campaign by holding an annual event in the Senedd and by raising money through the sale of white ribbons in the TŷHywel and Senedd shops. Coronavirus restrictions continue to impact our ability to host in-person events, but we will continue to show support for the White Ribbon campaign by raising awareness on our social media channels and by posting notices on the Member and staff intranets.
During the pandemic, the Commission has been mindful of the increased risk of incidences of domestic abuse as homeworking has been the norm, and has implemented and communicated increased measures of support.

Jack Sargeant AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and Llywydd, you will know I'm a very proud White Ribbon ambassador, and I am passionate about spreading the message that all men should make, and importantly, mean the White Ribbon promise. I know that you yourself, and other members of the Commission, both past and present, are powerful champions for this cause, and, as you've said, you often support the cause and have done over many years.
In the last Senedd, the Commission were looking at the possibility of becoming White Ribbon-accredited, and I'm keen to understand the progress that has been made on that issue.

Yes, Jack Sargeant, thank you, and thank you for pursuing this with us as a Commission, and I hope that you feel that you're knocking at an open door when it comes to promoting White Ribbon.
After saying that, I am going to have to say that despite our interest in becoming White Ribbon-accredited, I'm sorry to have to hide behind the pandemic for the reasons for not having achieved this to date. But having put in place more practical support measures for our staff in the context of the pandemic and working from home,I think it is now right for the new Commission to look again at what you've proposed previously, and proposed again today, at White Ribbon accreditation, and we will do so, as a Commission.

ICT Policy

Alun Davies AC: 5. Will the Commission make a statement on its ICT policy for the sixth Senedd? OQ56681

The Commission’s policy is to provide secure and adaptable ICT services that allow Members, their staff and Commission staff to work efficiently and flexibly. By way of example, all users have the option to select mobile devices to support flexible working and Commission applications and information can be accessed via a cloud service.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Presiding Officer for that. I was profoundly shocked to read section 2 of the policy, where it states very clearly that the Senedd Commission may without notice check and make and keep copies of all information, which includes, but is not limited to, telephone calls and any electronic communications, stored information, data sent, received created or contained within the Senedd ICT system. These are extraordinary intrusive powers that the Senedd Commission seems to have granted itself, and far more intrusive than would be available to either the police or the security services, if they were investigating criminality without seeking judicial approval. And, it appears to me, that this level of potential spying or snooping on elected Members, doing their work on behalf of the people of Wales, is wholly and completely unacceptable. I would ask this Senedd Commission to urgently withdraw this part of the policy, rewrite this policy, with the collaboration and cooperation of Members, and then we can have a policy that all of us feel a part of, and where we don't feel that we're being treated as criminals.

I can assure Members of this Senedd that they are not treated as criminals, neither does the Commission use any of this guidance for the purposes of spying or snooping, and I'm comfortable then in working with Members and Commissioners to give the reassurance, and to review this policy, if needs be, and, therefore, we can do that. But this policy is in place to both protect Members and, also, to ensure, if investigations of abuse of any kind or criminal behaviour have been undertaken by any Member or member of staff, that there is the ability to look into that information. But the ability to do that is done in light of restrictions that we have placed on ourselves, and it's not, in any way, any fishing exercise that can happen by the Commission. But, as I said, I'm perfectly happy, now that it's been raised in questions here, to provide any reassurance and to review, if necessary.

Commission Meetings

Sam Rowlands MS: 6. Will the Commission confirm its meeting arrangements for the forthcoming term? OQ56705

Commissioners were appointed for this Senedd on 23 June, and the intention is that their first formal meeting will take place before the end of term. The Commission meets two or three times each term usually, and is able to meet as demand needs. The Commission governance principles and supporting provisions are published on the website.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Just reflecting, as a new Member into the Senedd on this intake, there seemed to me to be a bit of disconnect between some of the new proposals, which the Commission were bringing forward in rules and rule changes in our working, and what Members were actually seeking. So, just wondering, with that meeting arrangement and timetable in place, how will you be using those meetings and making sure we're engaging with Members, informing Members, as to any potential changes in the future?

Well, thank you for raising that, and I'm aware that there have been a number of issues that have been of interest to Members, new and old, on some changes that have happened, as a result of some Commission decisions or other decisions, and making sure that Members feel that the decisions that are taken are taken on their behalf, and in consultation with Members is important to me as chair of the Commission and I'm sure the other Commissioners as well, and we need to make sure that we are continually improving on this. I suggest that all Members always read their e-mails. Whatever you might be complaining about may well have come to you in an e-mail at some point, and this isn't particular to you, Sam Rowlands, as you're a new Member. But sending out e-mails is not a particularly effective, always, way of communicating and consulting. So, we need to improve on that.
I'm particularly keen as well that the Commission engages with Members, but also that we engage with the groups, possibly more formally than we have done to date, and the group staff, so that we make sure that any decisions that are taken are well enough consulted upon and informed so that the Commissioners take the best possible decisions on behalf of Members and nobody feels bounced by any particular change of rule that's taken place. That's not to say that all Members will always agree with any decision that the Commission changes and takes, but at least they need to be informed decisions.

Biodiversity on the Senedd Estate

Carolyn Thomas AS: 7. What steps is the Commission taking to increase biodiversity on the Senedd estate? OQ56690

Despite limited green space on our estate, the Commission has made significant improvements in recent years to encourage biodiversity. We introduced two beehives a few years ago, and added a third beehive last summer. We have improved habitats to support pollinators, including a range of flowering plants in the Tŷ Hywel car park, and the wildflower strip alongside the Senedd, which this year is hosting a range of orchids. In our new carbon neutral strategy, we commit to doubling the amount of green space around the estate—something we have already begun working on—to increase both biodiversity and well-being.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you for that answer. Since joining the Senedd last month, I was really pleased to hear about some of the measures in place to encourage wildlife, including the bees on the Pierhead building. I would like this Parliament tolead the way in terms of using innovative techniques to encourage biodiversity, and will the Commission commit to investigating ways to encourage native species on the estate here in Cardiff bay, including the planting of wildflowers on unused ground? It sounds like you are already doing that, so that's wonderful, thank you.

Yes, and we're keen to increase what we do. And I heard your question to the Deputy Minister last week, and I understand that you have a new role in particular on promoting biodiversity and wildflower planting. And certainly if you're interested, as Jenny Rathbone has been a champion of many of these issues in the Senedd to date, then the Commission staff and us as Commissioners would be keen to work with you and to bring your ideas also. We do work with our Commission staff—with those particularly interested in promoting this—to see how we can improve the opportunities available for biodiversity on our estate, given, of course, that we have limitations in the urban environment that we're in, but also with the limited land that we have on our estate. But that's not a reason not to improve. So, I look forward to working with you—old and new Members—with new ideas on how we can improve this into the next—into the sixth—Senedd.

Engaging with Young People

Heledd Fychan AS: 8. What steps are being taken to build on the votes at16 campaign to ensure that more young people have the opportunity to engage with the Senedd's work? OQ56707

We’re currently evaluating the success of the votes at 16 campaign, and will use this insight, alongside data on election turnout, to inform our future approach to engaging with younger people. Over the past year, the use of virtual sessions with schools and youth groups have proved invaluable in reaching wider audiences. We’ll continue to build this into our offer for younger people during the sixth Senedd. The campaign for the second Welsh Youth Parliament is under way, with candidate nominations launching on 5 July. This will become the crux of our engagement work with young people over the next two years.

Heledd Fychan AS: Excellent. Thank you very much and thank you also for the role that you played in ensuring that young people of 16 and 17 did have the right to vote in this year's election. Although many young people took that opportunity, I'm very pleased to hear that you will be looking at the effectiveness of that campaign, but I'd also be interested to know whether that research will also include those who chose not to vote on this occasion. I hear from a number of young people who were very excited about the opportunity to vote that they'd found it difficult to encourage their peers to raise their voice too, because they didn't feel that they were sufficiently informed and felt that they didn't understand this place well enough. So, given that many people who are now 11 or 12 years old will vote in five years' time, is there any intention to find out why people chose not to vote too in order to draw up a strategy for the future?

That is a very important point, and also, of course, the challenge in ensuring that young people register to vote in the first instance. Those two things are linked, and both things are very important. So, we will need, as we reflect on the election and the experience that young people have just had of receiving the right to vote at the ages of 16 and 17, on how they decided to vote and on why a number of them decided not to vote—. So, both aspects of that work and those two cohorts are very important. It's important to discuss with those who did vote and those who chose not to exercise their new right, or weren't even aware that they did have the right to do that. So, yes, I agree, hearing the voices of all of the young people is very important as we think about how we prepare for future elections, including, of course, the fact that local government elections will be held next year, and there'll be a new cohort of young people who'll have the right to vote the first time.

Thank you, Llywydd.

4. Topical Questions

The next item is topical questions, and the first is from Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Eviction Policy

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's eviction policy? TQ557

Minister.

Can someone unmute the Minister? There we are, Minister.

Julie James AC: Diolch. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Welsh Government has negotiated a policy of no eviction into homelessness with all its social landlords across Wales. There is no eviction policy in the private rented sector, and the Welsh Government has, in fact, taken unprecedented steps to support tenants, preventing homelessness and supporting them to remain in their homes.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you for that response, Minister. As we've already heard this afternoon, regulations safeguarding people from evictions are to come to a close partially today. The news on the grant for people who are having difficulty in paying their rent is to be welcomed, but there is a risk that this will be entirely insufficient to meet the real demand.
But also the Government doesn't have a particularly good record of ensuring that support reaches those people who need it most, if you look at the fact that 1,500 people have expressed an interest in the tenancy saver loan and that only 41 received any support, and tens of thousands of people more are about to find themselves in a financially vulnerable situation if the Bevan Foundation research is correct.
We've already heard that the Government is funding councils to tackle homelessness, but the sad truth of the matter is that many county councils continue to house people in hotels and bed and breakfasts. There's a very real risk that we will see an increase in the number of people who are homeless as a result of this, never mind the fact that the eviction policy is to come to an end entirely in September, just as furlough comes to an end. Shouldn't all steps possible be taken to ensure that people don't become homeless in the first instance, and what steps will you take to ensure that there is more appropriate housing available to house people who will find themselves homeless in the short term? Thank you.

Julie James AC: Thank you for the question, which I'm sure comes from a real, shared desire, as I know everyone in Wales has, to make sure that we tackle the scourge of homelessness, especially with preventative measures. I'm extremely proud of the measures that everyone in the sector has taken across Wales during the pandemic, and we easily have the best record in the UK nations of making sure that people have not been homeless on our streets through the pandemic. Everyone in the sector has absolutely worked their socks off, coming together across Wales from both the statutory and voluntary sectors to make sure that that can happen.
We are still funding local authorities to the tune of just under £2 million a month, in addition to the normal funding that we give them, in order to ensure that people presenting as homeless right now are still treated with the dignity and respect that they deserve, and are housed in temporary accommodation. I absolutely accept that that temporary accommodation is a range of different services—of course it is, because we have an unprecedented situation in front of us.
We are currently seeing around 1,000 presentations of homelessness to local authority services each month, and we are currently seeing an average of around 400 of those people being moved into permanent accommodation. Members who were here in the last Senedd will know, because the Senedd agreed with us in funding local authorities to step up the pace of house building during the pandemic—. And you'll also remember, I'm sure, that we kept the construction industry open and running through all of that in order to do that. So, actually, 400 permanently housed people a month is an extraordinary effort by local authorities and registered social landlords and other house builders to get the housing built that we want.
I'm absolutely determined we will not have a going back to rationing in the housing sector and that we will continue to ensure that people who require homelessness services are treated with the dignity and respect that they deserve. We are currently working at pace to get our Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 implemented, and that will address a number of the issues that Mabon has raised in his question. We are working at pace to do that. There are real complications, which the Deputy Presiding Officer will not thank me for going into in the amount of time I have in a topical question, but I'm more than happy to discuss it in a cross-party way, as we have on a number of other occasions. And that will make a huge difference. Of course, today, as you rightly pointed out, we've announced that we have the grants system going into effect. You are right to say that the loans were not as effective as we'd have liked, for a range of reasons, and so what we're doing is we're announcing a grant now. There will be eligibility criteria for that. Our local authority partners, who've worked with us so hard during the pandemic to deliver services, will be delivering that on behalf of the Welsh Government, through the hardship fund. And I'm delighted to say that we've had agreement from the Welsh Local Government Association in the Government in order for that to be facilitated as soon as possible.
We are very worried about the housing crisis in Wales. Very recently, Plaid, quite rightly, brought a debate on the housing crisis, in Siân Gwenllian's name, to the Senedd—a motion that we did not amend, because we entirely agree. The true nature of the crisis is the real problem that we have with the pipeline, if you like, to homelessness. And so my colleague Jane Hutt has facilitated with us a series of advice and funding to advice agencies to assist with relationship breakdown issues and individual counselling and guidance, including debt guidance, mental health support and so on, in order to prevent that happening. And I'm working very closely with my colleague Lynne Neagle as well in making sure that substance abuse and mental health support is available in the sector.
I want to finish just by thanking the sector from the bottom of my heart, actually, for the work that they have continued to do throughout the pandemic and for the work they are still doing now to make sure that, in Wales, we have no real return to the streets and that those people who are still rough-sleeping, in tiny numbers in Wales, have outreach workers assigned to them, and we're working hard to get them into services.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I place on record my own interest in property within the private rented sector.
Now, as the National Residential Landlords Association reported in January, around 60 per cent of our private landlords have lost rental income as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic. Twenty-two per cent have lost more than £5,000, and 36 per cent have reported that losses are continuing to increase. Their bills have to be paid, and, if the contract is breached, sometimes eviction is the only way in which a landlord can protect their own livelihood.
Now, the reality of the matter is that, if the Welsh Government pursues a less than supportive direction for our valued private sector landlords, this could see around a third of our privately rented housing stock taken off the market or moved into the holiday let/Airbnb sector, which is already tempting some fed-up landlords as it is so much more lucrative and, frankly, a lot less hassle. This would make it harder for people to find a home. It would push up the cost of rent in remaining properties. Now, I'm sure that Plaid Cymru would not wish to support those outcomes, so it is time that they worked with us all, cross party, to ensure that both our tenants and, indeed, their property owners—

Will you ask the question now, please?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: —have a fair deal. Yes. The end of legal measures to prevent evictions is a good start. So, it is important that tenants are supported to move into properties they can better afford. So, Minister, will you consider policies such as the introduction of deposit passporting? Diolch.

Julie James AC: Thank you for the question. I think I understood it to be, right at the end there, the introduction of deposit passporting. We have a range of measures we're happy to look at in the private rented sector to enable tenants to move between households, where that's necessary for their families, and, as I've said, we're working hard in implementing the renting homes Act, which will allow greater protection for tenants in the rented sector. If Janet Finch-Saunders is very concerned about landlords who are losing income, she would do very well to refer them to our scheme, which would allow them to transfer their house into local authority control for a guaranteed income at the local housing allowance level. Over a large period of time, the scheme has proved very popular with landlords, who no longer have to have the 'hassle'—as she put it—of having tenants. It allows the tenant security and it gives them a secure income, benefiting all parties. So, if she's that concerned, I would highly recommend that she recommends that scheme in a widespread way to her landlord connections.
She's right in saying that we have a large number of reasonable landlords across Wales, to whom we're very grateful. They work hard to make sure their tenants are well looked after, and, in return, of course, they will be grateful that the tenant is now able to get a grant to repay the rent that they were unable to pay through no fault of their own as a result of the coronavirus pandemic. We're not talking about some kind of scurrilous tenant who's wilfully withholding rent; we're talking about perfectly reasonable human beings who find themselves in a situation that they cannot control through no fault of their own, which is why this Government is prepared to step in and assist both them and, of course, the landlords, who then receive the money, and the Government also prevents the human catastrophe of large numbers of people becoming homeless, which we all I'm sure wish to see.

Thank you, Minister. And now a question from Laura Anne Jones.

COVID-19: Safety Rules in Schools, Colleges and Universities

Laura Anne Jones AC: 2. In light of comments made by the Minister at a coronavirus press briefing on Monday, what steps is the Welsh Government taking to support schools, colleges and universities across Wales with the implementation of their own COVID-safety rules in the next term? TQ559

Jeremy Miles AC: My announcement on Monday was part of a conversation that will continue with our partners over the rest of this term. We will then publish the framework before the start of the new school year, and we will give schools the notice that they will need in order to be able to move to this new way of working in the next school term. We recognise that careful planning is needed to ensure that we maximise learning and keep everybody as safe as possible.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I would say 'Thank you', Minister, but that didn't get the clarity that I know that the sector want and the pupils and parents also want. Minister, there seems to be an upward trend that you and your Government want to address the press first before coming to the floor of this Chamber, which is the right due-process thing to do when doing major policy changes within this particular education sector.
We see an upward trend in the Government doing this and this is just not the right way to do things. The First Minister had the audacity yesterday to criticise the Prime Minister's, our British Prime Minister's, lack of respect for this Senedd, yet, by doing that, and going to the press first and not coming to the floor of this Chamber, you are showing a lack of respect to this Senedd and not going by due process. There is a right way thing to do things, Minister, and the rest of the Government. This isn't the way to do it. If we want this Senedd to be respected much as the UK Parliament, this is not the right way to go about it.
Can I just thank the Llywydd for recognising the importance of the Minister coming before the Senedd today and the timely need for it, and the urgent need for it? And we needed more clarity today, Minister. The sector are craving more clarity after your press briefing, which the National Association of Head Teachers said was utterly confusing, and also said that your proposals have the potential to be hugely disruptive and actually increase the number of close contacts rather than reducing them. There is complete confusion across the board about what this actually means. Are you giving the powers to individual schools? Are you giving them to local authorities? What are you doing, Minister? This is what I was hoping to hear from you today.
It's not right that you want to pass the buck, the blame and everything to headteachers. If that is the case, that's not a position that headteachers should be in, particularly after this pandemic and all the stresses and strains that they've been under. It's just not right. The buck should fall with you, Minister, and, if not, if you want to devolve some, then it should go to local authorities, so at least schools in local authority areas are doing the right thing. Minister, it's—

Can you ask a question now?

Laura Anne Jones AC: Yes. Finally, on masks, Minister, you should be taking a national lead on that. Masks in classrooms are just not necessary any more. There's no impact apart from on the child's well-being and the ability to communicate in class; your own scientific advisers have said they're doing more harm than good. So, Minister, please, can you come to this Chamber with a full statement giving clarity? There are two weeks left until the end of this term and teachers and schools need to prepare for the new term in September.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Laura Anne Jones for that further question. I don't recognise the picture of confusion that she describes. In our discussions with our partners in the education sector direct, we've been very clear that we will want to have discussions with them in relation to developments as they occur in schools, and we will always want to have those discussions in advance. As I said in my earlier answer, we are having those discussions during the course of this term, and as to the timing, which is the point she closed with, as I said, we'll be publishing the framework based on the discussions with our partners before the start of the new school year. Schools will have the notice that they need in order to be able to bring in these arrangements in the most effective way. There's going to be planning that is needed in order to do that, and they will have the time to do that.
I'm glad to hear her talk about well-being in her question. We are all, all parts of the school system, committed to the well-being and progression of our learners, and some of the interventions that have been necessarily in place. She mentioned school face coverings in her question, and we know that that impacts on well-being and the educational experience of young people in school, and so we want to make sure that those are, obviously, minimised, consistent with the level of risk. The reality is that schools serve different communities in different parts of Wales, and there will be different levels of transmission of the virus in different communities. So, when we say that those steps need to be minimised consistent with the risk, that risk also varies in different parts of Wales, and so what I announced on Monday was a different kind of approach, which will enable a suite of measures to be used in schools that reflects that local risk. But as I also said on Monday, this isn't a sort of—if I can describe it as this—free-for-all; that is not what is intended. There will be a national framework that will apply in local circumstances, and that framework will be discussed with our partners over the rest of this summer term, and schools will have access to the professional public health advice from Public Health Wales, from their local incident management teams, and so on. So, there'll be a very clear set of roles and responsibilities clearly communicated, and schools will have both that support and guidance and the flexibility to have the measures that reflect their local risk profile.

Siân Gwenllian AC: The Government needs to lead and not leave complex decisions up to schools and teachers who are under huge pressure already. That's unfair, it's irresponsible and it creates inconsistency. So, I would call on you to listen to the increased cry from our schools and to give clear guidance and consistent guidance.
May I ask you about the vaccination plans for children and young people? Clearly, we have to follow the advice of the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation in terms of vaccinating young people, but that advice won't be available until the end of July. If the scientists tell us that vaccination is safe, and it does appear that that is what they will say, do you have arrangements in the pipeline now to roll out vaccinations during August? Waiting until September leaves things very late, and there's an opportunity to do something specific over the summer. The evidence on the effectiveness of vaccination against the transmission of the virus suggests that school-age vaccination is one of the most prominent answers.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you for that question. May I reassure Siân Gwenllian that there is clear national guidance in this area? The framework will be a national framework that will highlight a range of interventions relevant to risk. Local circumstances will be pertinent to that, and I'm sure she would recognise that. Advice will be available at a local level as well as at a national level in order to ensure that interventions are not excessive in terms of the risk. I certainly share the aim of seeing as little impact as possible on learners given the risk levels, and the reality of the situation is that that will vary across Wales. So, the national plan that will be announced will support schools in responding to that risk in a way that is consistent, and is based on guidance and advice.
In terms of vaccination, we don't yet know what the JCVI will advise, and we will have to await that advice before I can respond to her question as to what exactly we will do, but I will give her an assurance that we do have plans in place, whatever the advice issued by the JCVI is.

Thank you, Minister.

5. 90-second Statements

Item 5 on the agenda are the 90-second statements. Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. A hundred and twenty seven years ago on 23 June 1894, a tremendous explosion occurred at the Albion colliery in Cilfynydd. The blast was heard four miles around. It and a thick volume of sulphurous smoke were the terrible omens of the devastation that had occurred. Iron structures were stripped, bent like wire and propelled significant distances by the force of the blast. More traumatic still was the loss of live. The Cardiff Times and The South Wales Weekly Newsdescribed Cilfynydd as resembling a city of the dead. Two hundred and ninety men and boys were killed that day, the youngest just 13 years old. It was the second-worst mining incident in Wales after the 1913 Senghenydd disaster. Whilst most of the victims were identified, the names of 11 remained unknown. In 1907, a memorial was unveiled in their honour at Llanfabon cemetery by Mabon, the well-known president of the South Wales Miners Federation.
Last week, I held the first of what I hope will become an annual event at that memorial in honour of those who lost their lives in the Albion. In a moving service led by Father Gareth Coombes, and along with representatives from Cilfynydd Primary School and Pontypridd High School, we laid floral tributes and had a moving service to remember the impact on their families and the wider community. The miners, their families and the community suffered a grievous loss that day. The least that we can do is to remember that tragedy.

Sioned Williams MS: With the Wimbledon tennis championships having begun this week, I'm delighted to congratulate a group of Neath residents who have undertaken the refurbishment of the town's tennis courts. And they've been recognised by the LTA, the Lawn Tennis Association, at their annual awards as one of the best community tennis projects in the UK. Quite a feat.

Sioned Williams MS: Neath Tennis was formed in 2018 by the residents of Dyfed Road, with the intention of reopening the tennis courts that had been closed for 10 years. In less than three years, the group of volunteers managed to raise over £100,000 to resurface the court and to put fences in place. The group is very proud of having ensured that this facility is available for the whole community, and has kept the price of hiring courts within reach of everyone.
The courts are used by the Urdd and local schools, including Ysgol Gymraeg Castell-nedd, who play on the courts every day during the summer term. Also, tennis training has been provided to children regularly, and there's a social tennis session for adults held every Saturday afternoon for those who want to play and make new friends.
It's a pleasure therefore to congratulate the group formally for their work here in the Chamber, and to wish Neath Tennis every success in the future. Thank you.

Delyth Jewell AC: I was saddened to hear this week that Bryn Seion chapel in Ystrad Mynach will be closing its doors for the last time on Sunday. The chapel has served the area since 1906, and has been a focal point of Welsh life not only in the town of Ystrad Mynach itself, but throughout the valley as a whole. It was a branch of the old chapel in Hengoed, and over many years generations of families marked the milestones of their lives within its walls: baptisms, weddings and funerals. So many of usattended a youth club, the Band of Hope, in the vestry when we were little, and took part in nativity plays—sometimes as Mary, sometimes as a shepherd, sometimes as a star in the heavens.
Bryn Seion wasn’t just a building, but the heart of a community: a place for celebration and devotion, a place to remember and to grieve. It was a building where you would like to see the walls not just speaking but dancing, singing their songs of praise. Its loss will not just be felt in the Baptist community, but among families and streets the length and breadth of the valley. And, although the numbers at the service on Sunday will be limited, in spirit the chapel will be full of old friends.

Thank you.

Motion to elect Members to the Finance Committee

The next item is a motion to elect Members to the Finance Committee. I call on a Member of the Business Committee to formally move. Siân Gwenllian.

Motion NDM7746 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, elects:
1. Rhianon Passmore (Welsh Labour), Alun Davies (Welsh Labour), and Peter Fox (Welsh Conservatives) as members of the Finance Committee.

Motion moved.

Siân Gwenllian AC: I formally move.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal: A Bill on a rights-based approach to services for older people

Item 6 on our agenda is a debate on a Member's legislative proposal: a Bill on a rights-based approach to services for older people. I call on Gareth Davies to move the motion.

Motion NDM7713 Gareth Davies
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes a proposal for a Bill that would embed a rights-based approach in the development, planning and delivery of public services that affect older people in Wales.
2. Notes that the purpose of this Bill would be to:
a) place a duty on Welsh Ministers to have due regard for the United Nations Principles for Older Persons when making decisions that may impact upon older people in Wales;
b) extend the due regard duty to local authorities, local health boards and other Welsh public authorities;
c) place a duty on Welsh Ministers to promote knowledge and understanding of the UN Principles for Older Persons amongst older people and Welsh public authorities;
d) place a requirement for Welsh Ministers to consult the Older People’s Commissioner, older people and other relevant stakeholders before making or revising the older people’s rights scheme; and
e) place a duty for Welsh Ministers to issue guidance to Welsh public authorities.

Motion moved.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I'd also like to thank the Business Committee for giving me this fantastic opportunity to address the Senedd this afternoon and bring forward this proposal. It’s a great honour, as one of the Parliament’s newest Members, to be bringing forward the first proposal for legislation of the sixth Senedd. The fact that this proposal has had support from across the Chamber shows that all parties here care about the rights of older persons.
According to the Office for National Statistics' latest mid-year population estimates, Wales has the highest proportion of over-65s of any home nation. Over one in five of our population are past state retirement age, and the numbers of people over 65 outweigh the number of people under the age of 15, meaning that we're an ageing population. Over the next two decades, the number of people aged over 65 is set to grow by around 40 per cent. While our demographics are changing, our society is not adapting, meaning that the rights of older people are being eroded.
We have taken steps in Wales to protect the rights of children and young people—and rightly so. We have, thanks to this institution, embedded the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child into Welsh law, and have placed a duty on Welsh Ministers to have regard to the UNCRC in everything we do. I want to afford our older generation the same protections enjoyed by our children.
The proposal for legislation before you today will, if taken forward, ensure that public bodies providing services that affect older people have had due regard to these, the UN principles for older persons. This two-page document was adopted by the UN General Assembly nearly 30 years ago in 1991, and sets out 18 principles. These core principles are grouped together in five themes: independence, participation, care, self-fulfilment and dignity—things that most of us take for granted. But these things are not always afforded to our older generations, unfortunately, as has been highlighted during the past 15 months.
The coronavirus pandemic has hit over-65s harder than any other age group. Older people are more likely to die from the virus, more likely to suffer from loneliness and isolation as a result of lockdown measures, and more likely to suffer as a result of measures put in place to reduce the impact on our NHS. A recent survey undertaken by Age Cymru, Active Wales, Cymru Older People's Alliance, Pensioners Forum Wales, National Pensioners Convention Wales, Women Connect First, and the Welsh Senate of Older People discovered the true impact the pandemic has had on older people. Respondents told of how lockdown not only affected their mental health, but also their physical health as well. A staggering seven in 10 outlined a negative experience in accessing healthcare, with one in five having cancelled appointments. What really hit home, however, was the comment by one respondent. She said, 'I am concerned that when lockdown is over, we will struggle as service providers return to neglecting the needs of those of us who have always lived in lockdown, regardless of the pandemic.'
We cannot allow the needs of older people to be neglected any longer. My proposed legislation will ensure that the rights of older persons are respected and protected. I urge colleagues to support the motion before them this afternoon. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. Do remember that speakers have three minutes on this item and not five minutes.

Just to remind you, as this is the first time that a Member has brought a statement forward, that it's three minutes for speakers, not five minutes as in a normal debate. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: First off, I would like to thank you, Gareth, for bringing this very important debate here to the Chamber. I think the points you very ably make about seeking this Bill to come forward—unless it's put into legislation, then things are going to be the very same.
Older people's experiences during the pandemic have certainly strengthened the case for further protection of their rights in law. It's not the first time that we as Welsh Conservatives have asked for this legislation to come forward. All of us will have stories of constituents in our own constituencies who have needed rallying round, and, in some instances, have not had anyone to rally round. For example, in Aberconwy, the rotary club of the Conwy valley and Golygfa Gwydyrhave been providing a foodbank service. Let's build on that momentum to help others by creating the due duty that our older people deserve. This would help stop serious errors that happen again and again, such as older and vulnerable people being pressured into signing 'do not attempt to resuscitate' CPR forms, the unjustifiable delay on care home testing, and gaps between care home visiting and guidance based against the reality on the ground.
Over 140,000 older people in Wales could be experiencing some form of abuse, and I'd like to thank the older people's commissioner, Heléna Herklots, for the work that she's doing on this very issue. It is clear from the recent report 'Support Services for Older People Experiencing Abuse in Wales' that more action is needed. Recommendations include the need for the Welsh Government to review relevant strategies and policies to ensure that they address the needs of our older people, and for policy makers, commissioners and service providers to consider how the needs of older people living in rural areas can be met.
We know that our community buses, and the lack of them, provide even more social isolation for our older people. We can help by creating the duty to have due regard to the UN principle that you mention that people should be able to live in environments that are safe. Imagine the difference it would make if Ministers, local authorities, health boards and other Welsh authorities had to have due regard to the need for older people to have access to adequate healthcare and housing. It would help drive action to address the worrying estimate that, by 2035, Wales is going to have a shortfall of 5,000 units of housing with care. We're going to have a lack of 7,000 nursing care beds and 15,000 units of housing for older people.
The duty could also help highlight the need for urgent action to address the devastating fact that 70 per cent of older people had a negative experience of accessing healthcare during lockdown.I have constituents coming in now daily where they just feel forgotten because of COVID; they're in desperate pain and agony, with a lack of treatment and a lack of GP access. We have to really strengthen those rights. So, Deputy Minister, I fully endorse and support the calls by my newly elected colleague Gareth Davies. And I thank you, Gareth, for bringing such an important issue to the floor of this Senedd so soon in your political career here. Thank you. Diolch.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you to Gareth Davies, from the Vale of Clwyd, where I was born, for tabling this motion.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I wish to speak in support of the motion tabled. I'm the Plaid Cymru spokesperson on communities and older people, and as such, this proposed legislation is something I take a keen interest in. This motion is timely in light of a number of headlines we've seen in recent weeks. We've seen research that shows that older people are feeling increasingly cut off from society. This is, in part, due to old habits of relying on cash, and with a reluctance to adopt online banking, this adds to the feeling of being ignored, left out and left behind. It has also been said that loneliness is the new normal for many older people. We should not accept or tolerate this. This section of society may be among some of our most vulnerable and, for many of us, our most precious.
We have also heard how scams have risen dramatically since the beginning of the pandemic. We know that older people are often the victims of this type of crime. It's also true that they are the most targeted. This is causing police forces to alter their recruitment policies, so that they have a constabulary more capable of investigating these crimes. Then, of course, there are the headlines that we saw at the start of the pandemic and, indeed, throughout the pandemic: the impact on care homes. The death rates in care homes were not acceptable, and lessons have to be learned. Those residents who were fortunate enough to avoid catching coronavirus were still impacted greatly by the removal of visitation rights from family and friends.
It is possible for social distancing to be maintained, even during a pandemic, to protect and prevent the virus from spreading. The blanket ban on visits under any circumstances, including socially distanced outdoor visits, meant well-being plummeting for many care home residents. Sending out a clear message that the rights of older people matter and are protected in law would be a powerful thing for this Senedd to do. This legislation will make it clear that we, in this Senedd, value our older people. Most importantly, it will tell our older people that we care. That's something worth supporting. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Services, Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan AC: Diolch. Thank you, Gareth, for bringing the first legislative proposal to this new Senedd.
The Welsh Government is committed to upholding and protecting the rights of all older people in Wales. I am clear that age does not diminish an individual's right to be treated with dignity and respect. The pandemic, as speakers here today have already referred to, has sharpened society's awareness of the importance of human rights, and several referrals have been made to some of the issues that have arisen during the pandemic.
I would just like to make a few points to clear up some of the statements that have been made. In terms of care home visiting, there has never been a blanket ban on care home visiting. It's always been possible for visitors to go into care homes in particular circumstances, but I accept the point that the Member is making: that, overall, it has been a very sad situation for people in care homes and their relatives. But, there has never been a blanket ban.
As I say, the pandemic has sharpened our awareness, but before the first outbreak of COVID-19, a programme of work was already under way to make rights real for older people. Older people's rights are already enshrined in the UK Human Rights Act 1998, and age is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010. Specifically in Wales, the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 requires local authorities to have due regard to the UN principles for older people, and gives older people a strong voice in the arrangements for any care that they may need.
As part of our activity to co-produce a strategy for an ageing society, a working group was convened to develop practice guidance, demonstrating how health and social care professionals can embed a rights-based approach. Membership of the group included older people, leading academics and representatives of the third sector and the older persons' commissioner. The guidance, which was published in December 2020, uses practical examples to illustrate how local authorities can have due regard to the UN principles for older persons, as required by the social services and well-being Act. It shows how simple changes to the way that we work can uphold an individual's human rights and can have a major impact on their well-being.
For many, this guidance will provide a reaffirmation that the approach they are taking is the right one. However, I want the guidance to inform all aspects of service design—commissioning, tendering, delivery and evaluation. I will continue to take advice from the ministerial advisory group on ageing onhow we use these resources to best effect. The group also produced a version of this guidance for older people, and I hope that these two documents will be used together to guide conversations and inspire a common understanding of the transformative effect of a rights-based approach.
In January 2020, we also ran an older people's rights campaign, which was promoted via print, radio adverts and social media. We'll continue to identify options for promoting rights as we publish the strategy for an ageing society, which is due in September. We'll have a supporting delivery plan by the end of the year. A rights-based approach will be fundamental to the realisation of our 10 well-being objectives, as set out in our new programme for government. Two of the objectives are: to protect, rebuild and develop our services for vulnerable people; and to celebrate diversity and move to eliminate inequality in all of its forms.
The pandemic has highlighted other groups in society who also experience the corrosive impact of inequality and deserve to have their rights better protected. There have been calls to enact the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, and also to bring into Welsh law the UN convention on the rights of disabled people, and we support these calls. However, introducing separate pieces of legislation to address the needs of individual groups would result in a piecemeal approach. It may also make it more difficult to understand how people living with more than one protected characteristic experience inequality.
There is a strong argument for taking a more ambitious, holistic approach to legislating for human rights. To inform this approach, the Welsh Government has commissioned research to explore the options available to strengthen and advance equality and human rights in Wales. This research is considering the possible incorporation of the United Nations conventions into Welsh law and whether there may be need for new legislation, such as a human rights Bill for Wales or changes to existing legislation. The final draft report has been submitted to the Welsh Government, and we are now able to say that publication is anticipated by the end of the summer period. As part of this work, the research team met with the ministerial advisory forum on ageing, and numerous community equality organisations representing people with different protected characteristics. Evidence from marginalised minority groups with lived experience was also collected via focus groups, and it is intended that the Welsh Government will consult on any identified options or legislative models to emerge from this research.
To conclude, while I am committed to upholding and protecting the rights of all older people in Wales, and I accept many of the points made by the contributors to the debate today, I cannot support this proposal. When we do legislate, we should do that holistically for the whole of society and in a way that acknowledges the complexity of people's lives and experiences.

No Members have indicated that they wish to intervene, therefore I call on Gareth Davies to reply to the debate.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much again, Deputy Presiding Officer. I want to thank everybody this afternoon for their fantastic contributions.
Janet Finch-Saunders talked about the legislation that has been a priority of the Welsh Conservatives for some time now, further protection of rights, elderly people being in isolation, and the great community support from Llandudno rotary club, and others in the local community, who are there to help our elderly people in a particularly difficult time during the pandemic over the last 15 months, and that holistic approach that comes as a result of that. Because, essentially, it's a non-exhaustive list of needs, sometimes, with some individuals, and that's really important to highlight.
Thanks very much as well to Peredur, who takes a great interest in this subject. It's good to see you being Plaid's spokesman on this, on a subject that you feel really passionate about. You highlighted the lack of online banking facilities or the lack of knowledge from—or perhaps a lack of knowledge from—elderly people of how to use that, and they felt isolated as a result, and scams and death rates in care homes increasing.
And thank you as well to Julie Morgan for rightly covering human rights and some of the UK legislation that's already in place. But, I think, in terms of not being able to support this this afternoon is quite disappointing. We have a chance here where we have the devolved powers to enact these things, and the Welsh Government have a good opportunity to stand up for the population that makes up a fifth of this country, and it's a fantastic opportunity to do that this afternoon. I just want to come back and say this isn't political, it's got cross-party support. I've had some supportive messages from even some Labour MSs this afternoon. So, you know, it goes to show that this is a consensus, and it's all nice when we agree on things. So, I'm quite disappointed that the Welsh Government can't support this this afternoon.
I'll just close by urging colleagues to support this motion in front of you this afternoon. Thank you very much.

The proposal is to note the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

We will now suspend proceedings to allow changeovers in the Chamber. If you're leaving the Chamber, please do so promptly. The bell will be rung two minutes before proceedings restart. Any Members who are arriving after a changeover should wait until then before entering the Chamber.

Plenary was suspended at 16:32.

The Senedd reconvened at 16:43, with the Deputy Presiding Officer in the Chair.

7. Plaid Cymru Debate: Climate and biodiversity

The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1 and 2 in the name of Darren Millar.

The next item is item 7, the Plaid Cymru debate on climate and biodiversity, and I call on Delyth Jewell to move the motion.

Motion NDM7725 Siân Gwenllian
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes the Senedd’s declaration of a climate emergency in 2019.
2. Notes that the 15th meeting of the Conference of the Parties (COP15) to the Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD) will meet this autumn to agree to a global biodiversity framework.
3. Believes there should be parity between actions taken by the Welsh Government to tackle climate change and those taken to tackle biodiversity loss.
4. Recognises the need to close the environmental governance gap created by our departure from the EU.
5. Declares a nature emergency.
6. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) introduce legally binding requirement to reverse biodiversity loss through statutory targets;
b) legislate to establish an independent environmental governance body for Wales.

Motion moved.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. When we think of the natural world, we think about abundance, don't we—lush forests, epic mountainsides, roaring rivers. But the natural world is made up of co-dependent ecosystems, food chains and habitats that interweave and interconnect, and once you start to chip away at any part of it, it has an indelible impact on the whole.
Plaid Cymru has brought forward today's debate because we believe there is a nature emergency that co-exists alongside the climate emergency, and that unless we tackle these crises together, we will not overcome either. But, Dirprwy Lywydd, whilst we have targets for carbon emissions, there is no corresponding mechanism for nature, no targets to track how we will limit and reverse biodiversity loss. And just on that point, I'd like to take a step out for a moment of talking just about figures, targets, acronyms or technical words that can make some people switch off. What we're talking about is plant life, animal life, the beauty that makes our nation and our world magnificent, the stuff that makes poets compose poems, that makes musicians sing and soar, the land we have inherited and which we hope to pass on to future generations. It's something worth fighting for. It's something worth preserving, nurturing, ensuring we retain and celebrate it.

Delyth Jewell AC: But, to go back to those targets, because they play an important role—targets set the tone and track—how does that landscape look internationally? The Convention on Biological Diversity targets lapsed in 2020; they were global targets to reverse wildlife loss and decline in the natural environment, and the UN confirmed that we had all failed miserably to achieve them. And when you miss a target like that, it doesn't stand still—that loss, that decline, continues apace. The situation gets worse. We now have an obligation to reset biodiversity targets and to back those up with investment, with plans for nature-based solutions, projects to centre on species recovery and changes that will prioritise healthy green and blue habitats across Wales.
Today, I am proud to have with me my species champion badge: I am the species champion for the shrill carder bee, one of many species in Wales that have seen their numbers dwindle over the past few decades. Because of a loss of habitat, wildflower meadows being built on or cut back, the numbers of this bee found in Wales and England have declined by 90 per cent since the 1970s. The Gwent levels in my region has now one of the only populations found in these islands, which is why it's so important that the Gwent levels and other sites of special scientific interestaren't used for solar farms or, indeed, roads. It's why the work that the Friends of the Gwent Levels is doing is so important.
Now, the shrill carder bee is sadly far from being alone in being a species at risk. The 2019 state of nature report found that one in six species in Wales is at risk of extinction. That's 10 per cent of our plants, 36 per cent of mammals and 5 per cent of invertebrates like butterflies, snails and bees. And, again, I know we can all sometimes get lost or overwhelmed in the figures, the percentages, and listening to these lists—what this means is that entire ecosystems are put at risk. Species of butterfly have declined by 52 per cent in Wales since 1976, and mammals like the red squirrel and water voles are at risk of disappearing. Hedgehog populations have declined by 60 per cent since 1995, within my lifetime, and there's been a 71 per cent decline in the stunning greenfinch. Now, since the 1970s, 73 species have been lost in Wales; they have gone, and the rate of that extinction is accelerating.
Now, these catastrophes, these desolations—they're down to us. Nature loss is driven by human activity like agricultural management, the urbanisation of our landscapes, river pollution, air pollution, woodland management. Yes, there are other factors: climate change—which, again, we contribute to—as well as invasive non-native species. But, just as we contribute towards the decline, so too do we suffer as a result. Nature provides us with our sustenance and our food, our energy and our medicines. The 'Global Assessment Report on Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services', which, again, is a long title, but it recognises that nature loss contributes to poverty, to public health and conflict. And I would add to that list intergenerational unfairness. We are robbing future generations of species they might never get to share a world with. We're taking away a sense of wonder, of joy, from this planet, not to mention the question of morality that we have no right to destroy the natural world.
So, Dirprwy Lywydd, what needs to happen? It is high time we declared a nature emergency in Wales, and, as our motion sets out, in that declaration's wake, the Welsh Government as a result must introduce legally binding targets to reverse biodiversity loss and to begin to plan how to recover what has been lost. We are also calling on the Welsh Government to introduce legislation to establish an independent governance body for Wales. Now, I note that the Conservative amendment calls for co-operation and, of course, co-operation is vital on this issue, but this crisis cannot be tackled on a UK basis. The UK Environment Bill talks of an office of environmental protection for England and Northern Ireland only. Scotland has its own environmental standards body. We in Wales need to introduce our own primary legislation, our own governance structure, so the Welsh Government must introduce a nature Bill, an environmental governance Bill—whatever you choose to call it, make it work, make it cover nature targets, make it establish a robust governance body to replace the protections we lost with our departure from the EU, make sure that this crisis is tackled through all ministerial portfolios, particularly agriculture, as well as climate change, and please ensure that public bodies can be held to account if they act in ways that aren't in keeping with reversing biodiversity loss.
Visit Wales makes much of our spectacular scenery in its advertising, and it uses the slogan 'Find Your Epic'. Unless we today declare a nature emergency in Wales, unless we treat the climate and nature crises facing us with the same sense of urgency, and unless we take the steps set out in our motion to reverse the decline, there will shortly be no 'epic' to be found on our hillsides. All that beauty, all that life, all that variety will be lost. Jules Renard said:
'On earth there is no heaven, but there are pieces of it.'
Let's make it our role to ensure that the puzzle book of nature retains its richness, that the pieces that make up this majestic jigsaw of the natural world don't get lost because we couldn't be bothered to save them.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move amendments 1 and 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar
Delete point 4 and replace with:
Recognises the opportunity for Wales to be a world leader on environmental governance following the United Kingdom's departure from the European Union.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar
Add as new sub-point at end of point 6:
'work more closely with the UK Government on the response to the climate emergency and nature recovery.'

Amendments 1 and 2 moved.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Yes, I move the amendments, thank you, tabled in the name of Darren Millar MS.
When the Welsh Government declared a climate emergency some two years ago, we all hoped as Members that this would trigger a wave of action at home in Wales, the UK and internationally. We didn't, however, expect a series of failures to action such progress. We didn't expect a nature recovery and emergency to be overlooked. Some of those inactions include that Welsh solar photovoltaic capacity has only increased by less than 1 per cent from 2019, there were only five new hydro projects commissioned in 2019, and small private hydropower schemes are on a cliff edge now due to a Welsh Government decision to withdraw business rate relief. Despite poor air quality contributing to a reduced life expectancy and death, tallying up to the equivalent of up to 1,400 mortalities in Wales each year, we all know that the First Minister and his Government failed to deliver the manifesto-promised clean air Act. In fact, the new Minister will know that emission reductions have been dominated by the power sector, and, in particular, the closure of the Aberthaw power station. So, there is a desperate need for action across Wales. Even the report on the climate change Wales regs 2021 stated that
'rhetoric must now be met with bold and decisive action.'
We were reminded of this recently, with CCRA3 disclosing that
'26 risks from climate change in Wales have increased in urgency score.'
These include the risks to terrestrial species and habitats from pests, pathogens and invasive species, with gaps in policy such as a lack of enhanced monitoring, any surveillance and early response measures; the risk to agriculture and forestry from pests and pathogens and invasive species; the failure of the Wales animal health and welfare framework to make explicit reference to specific climate change risks or adaptation actions to manage increased risks related to pests and pathogens for kept-animal health; and the risk to marine species, habitats and fisheries from changing climactic conditions, with current policy lacking detailed actions that include specific outcomes for the marine sector, plans for progress, and reporting that recognises the scale of the climate change risks facing us.
These very recent examples should leave us in no doubt that we must now declare also a nature emergency. We must do this, when considering that the latest 'The State of Natural Resources Report' found that the overall trend is one of serious decline. As Wales Environment Link have highlighted, with such a broad range of drivers, we simply cannot address the nature emergency solely as a subsidiary of the climate emergency. In fact, climate change measures have potential to harm nature, such as the planting of trees in inappropriate places and poorly-located renewable energy infrastructure.
So, I am pleased to call for specific action on biodiversity loss. Plaid Cymru are correct; we should follow the UK Government's decision and introduce legally-binding requirements to reverse biodiversity loss through statutory targets. Similarly, Members will know from the last Senedd that I fully supported the establishment of an independent environmental governance body for Wales. Llyr Gruffydd, Mike Hedges, Jenny Rathbone and Joyce Watson will remember and understand from our past committee work that point 4 could be deemed mischievous, and that the gap was caused by long-term arrangements being placed on the back burner by the Welsh Government. So, I implore you to support amendment 1.
Similarly, it would be mature for us all to back amendment 2 and work more closely with the UK Government on the response to the climate emergency and nature recovery. Nature knows no border on the British isles. In fact, I have great optimism that such domestic and even, potentially, international co-operation can be achieved this year, thanks to the Convention on Biological Diversity COP15.
I'll finish by referring to the work of Jason Singh, who believes that we would pay more attention to plants if we could hear them. At Kew Gardens, he has created soundscapes based on the electrical signals generated within plants as they respond to their environment, and converted them into otherworldly soundscapes for us to hear. 'Extinction Songs' give us a voice to nature that needs positive action by us. So, I do hope that the declaration of a nature crisis today is the start of a crescendo of action to tackle these emergencies, and not a duff note, like the Welsh Government's handling of the climate crisis to date. Thank you. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Can I say to Delyth Jewell, who introduced this debate in the name of Siân Gwenllian, how much I welcome this? And it feels to me as if there is now a growing not just cross-party consensus, but a real momentum behind not just the climate change crisis, but the nature crisis and the biodiversity crisis as well. And that should be encouraging to the Minister, who spoke earlier on today at an event that Llyr and others attended on how we actually protect the very best in our marine environment, as well as sustainably exploit the marine environment as well. The Minister did speak very eloquently in her remarks at that debate, but I'm really, really pleased this early in the sixth Senedd that we have this gathering momentum around doing the right thing, following the evidence, sometimes making the hard and difficult decisions, and I see the Minister here, Lee Waters, has just joined us and he'll be very familiar with that from the announcements only a week ago on the roads review as well: following the evidence, following the data for climate change, for biodiversity.
It also, of course, falls on the back of a motion that was laid on 15 June here in this place that was co-signed by Llyr and Janet and Jane Dodds as well, which in drawing reference to COP15 coming up—the UN Convention on Biological Diversity Conference—also called then on
'Welsh Government to support a successful outcome from COP15 by making clear its support for a global target to halt and begin to reverse biodiversity loss by 2030 and secure substantive recovery by 2050, and to commit to reflecting this in domestic law, incorporating targets for species and habitats.'
And of course that is reflected very much in the motion in front of us today.
But the scale of what we have to do has been known for quite some time and, in fact, Welsh Government has acknowledged it too. In the refresh that they did of the nature recovery action plan, in prefatory remarks there, it acknowledged that in the post 2020 framework for the CBD's strategic plan to 2050
'very few of the 2020 Aichi targets have been achieved and that biodiversity is still in decline.'
It acknowledged that:
'The 2019 report on biodiversity and ecosystems from the Intergovernmental Science-Policy Platform on Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services...described the loss of biodiversity as a threat of equal size to the climate emergency',
which is enshrined within this motion here today. And, of course, it also flagged up the need to address the post-EU exit governance gap. And away from the political aspects of this, we know that there is that clear and pending risk of a governance gap here, as we have left the EU. This is not a political point; it's just a pragmatic reality point that we need to address, and it refers to the need to actually change the way in which we approach landscape management here, through sustainable farming as well, and we'll come to that during this Senedd.
But it also pointed to some of the urgent short-term actions. It says we need to align the responses to the climate emergency and the biodiversity crisis. That's within this motion today. I absolutely support this. It says that we need to address the post-EU exit funding gap for agri-environment measures—the Government is getting on with that; we need to support that—and that we need to provide spatial direction for action on biodiversity. It's not enough anymore to do small piecemeal fixes or pilots and so on; we need to do this at scale at large spatial dimensions, to improve the condition of the protected sites network, terrestrially and marine as well, and explore new and sustainable funding mechanisms as well, and so on.
So, we know we have to get on with this. I really welcome the wording within this about closing the environmental governance gap, about focusing on the Conference of the Parties to the Convention on Biological Diversity in the autumn, about targets, because targets are important. There are always the dangers with targets that you pick the wrong targets and you have the negative consequences, but I think we are clever enough to get through that. I really do think that. There is a commitment from the Government to do it, and that legally binding requirement to reverse biodiversity loss through those targets is important.
So, Minister, I think this debate is helpful—it genuinely is—and I look forward to the response that you bring forward, but I feel that there is a cross-party momentum now behind these sorts of changes, which is good to see. It shouldn't be seen as a threat to Government; it should be seen as a support to Government to do the right thing, follow the evidence, and sometimes take some really tough decisions as well.

Siân Gwenllian AC: I am the species champion for the twite—a small, beautiful bird, and a rare bird. But, thanks to the restoration work by agriculturists and others of the twite's habitat in Snowdonia, it appears that the species is on the rise again. So, there is hope. By planning, by doing that restorative work, and working in partnership, rare species can be revived. The situation facing nature in Wales and the world is clear to everyone, and the statistics are very sobering. Every sector, every community, and every corner of Wales will be affected very seriously by nature decline. And those who will feel the greatest impact will be our children and young people—the next generation.
Many young people are concerned about the future, and it's a duty on the Government of any nation to provide solutions, to demonstrate that the nature crisis is being taken seriously and, more importantly than anything, to set out clear steps that can be taken to overcome the situation. Through nature restoration and providing more opportunities for children to access nature, we can provide a wide range of benefits to our children and young people, in terms of their education, their health, their well-being and, most importantly, we can offer hope for the future. But we have to prevent the decline by setting statutory targets to overcome the decline of biodiversity, and then follow up on that by creating a genuine increase in biodiversity.
According to Estyn research, the majority of practitioners note that open-air education promotes engagement and enjoyment in learning. But even though there are clear advantages for children and young people emanating from their link with the natural environment, research has shown that the time that children spend on their experiences of the natural world is declining, without mentioning the fact that nature is itself declining,making it even more difficult for children and young people to enjoy the natural world. And even worse than that, the decline in nature and the lack of access to nature that emanates from that is having an impact on children living in poverty more than any other children, exacerbating social inequality and in terms of education and health.
Biodiversity is declining, there's no doubt about that, but we can do something about it. We have to safeguard the twite, we have to restore nature for the benefit of the people of Wales for the future and for the benefit of the future of Wales. So, we are calling on the Minister and the Government to do the right thing for the benefit of nature, for the benefit of education, for the benefit of the health of our children and young people and for the benefit of the next generation, and the way forward is to set out a robust framework, with a focus and a clear objective by introducing nature restoration targets. Thank you.

Mark Isherwood AC: With the twenty-sixth UN Climate Change Conference, COP26, scheduled to be held in Glasgow under UK presidency in four months' time, this debate re-emphasises the need for parity between actions taken by the Welsh Government to tackle climate change and those taken to tackle biodiversity loss.
The Welsh Conservative amendment re-emphasises the need for Welsh Government to work more closely with the UK Government on the response to the climate emergency and nature recovery. After all, unlike football, nature knows no boundaries. Nature is in crisis across Wales. Despite Wales's stunning landscapes and beautiful scenery, wildlife in Wales is in serious decline. The 'State of Nature Report 2019' found that one in six species in Wales are threatened with extinction and the latest 'The State of Natural Resources Report' summary finds that ecosystem resilience in Wales is declining in line with global trends.
This decline is also reflected in curlew populations in Wales. As Wales's species champion for the curlew since 2016, I'm working with Gylfinir Cymru/Curlew Wales, a collaboration of Government agencies and non-governmental organisations, including the farming unions, formed to try and reverse the dire decline of curlew in Wales—an ecological umbrella or indicator species. The UK regularly hosts up to a quarter of the global curlew-breeding population and the curlew is now considered the most pressing bird conservation priority throughout Wales and the UK. Breeding numbers are in steep decline in Wales, down 44 per cent in the last decade. At current levels of decline, curlew will be extinct as a breeding population in Wales by 2033 without intervention. We've only years to save this iconic and culturally important species and its ethereal voice in the Welsh landscape.
In June 2019, I attended the first ever curlew summit at 10 Downing Street, alongside the senior ornithologist at Natural Resources Wales and Curlew Country's project manager. We heard that sufficient resource will be required to advise, encourage and assist groups of farmers to come together to deliver, monitor and champion curlew and biodiversity across landscapes, and that there is a need to understand the multiple and multispecies benefits from an ecosystem resilience, cultural and natural heritage perspective that can be delivered through curlew conservation action. We also heard that the widespread planting of conifers on uplands had led to massive habitat loss and it was not just the planted land that destroyed the birds, but the land in a large area around the forest ceased to be sustainable habitat for ground-nesting birds, as the forest provides ideal cover for predators, mostly foxes, carrion crows and badgers.
The commendable goal to increase forestry and woodland in Wales must therefore ensure that we have the right trees in the right place to genuinely protect biodiversity. The review of the wider biodiversity and ecosystem benefits of curlew recovery and applicability to Wales—a report commissioned by Natural Resources Wales—states that papers provided a diverse array of evidence showing that curlew recovery would benefit multiple species, both directly and indirectly, underpinning our understanding of curlew as an indicator species. For example, hares give birth on land surfaces, usually farmland, where the young remain motionless, not unlike the curlew, grey partridge, skylark or lapwing, which lay their eggs in a shallow scrape or nest in open farmland. Conservation actions that benefit ground-nesting birds, therefore, also appear to support, for example, hares.
Gylfinir Cymru have been working on a Wales action plan for curlew, which we hope the Welsh Government will endorse. It will identify the most important curlew areas in Wales and emphasise the importance of a well-designed, well-funded sustainable farming scheme, so that farmers can do the right thing for curlew in these places. NGOs have welcomed funding for curlew made available by Welsh Government and NRW this year, but have highlighted that NRW's procurement system and the lack of multi-year funding means that this money was not available for this breeding season, and won't be available for the next one either. It could also only be spent on capital projects, but it is people who will save curlew and nature. There's a real need to ensure good co-ordination and boots on the ground to achieve this. Nature has intrinsic value, but it also—

Can the Member conclude now, please?

Mark Isherwood AC: —plays an important role. We need it for the food that we eat, the air that we breathe, and the water that we drink. I will conclude. The Welsh Government therefore needs show that it is serious about tackling the nature crisis by committing to introduce legislation during the first year of Government to set legally binding targets for nature recovery in order to harness efforts across Government and other sectors to halt and reverse biodiversity loss. Diolch.

Mike Hedges AC: As others have said, we are fast losing biodiversity in Wales, with the latest 'The State of Natural Resources Report' stating that the overall trend is one of serious decline, reflecting the global situation of an internationally recognised nature emergency.
The danger is a dystopian future, with the only mammals surviving being pets, farm animals and scavengers such as rats. Could Kenneth Grahame write The Wind in the Willows today, and do modern children know the animals that he is talking about? Take badgers, which are not liked by many in this Chamber, being blamed for bovine TB. They eat slugs, mice and rats. The danger of losing top-of-the-food-chain predators is that the animals lower down the food chain can expand, like rabbits do, in accordance with the Fibonacci. Remember Australia?
Biodiversity loss in Wales is being driven by a number of human-induced factors, including agricultural management, climate change, urbanisation, pollution, hydrological change, woodland management and invasive non-native species, of which Japanese knotweed is the most common in my constituency.
Primary legislation is needed urgently to address the gap left in the oversight and enforcement of environmental law as a result of us leaving the EU. Wales unfortunately lags behind all the other parts of the UK when it comes to securing effective environmental governance post Brexit. The previous Welsh Government made a commitment to bring forward an environmental governance and principles Bill in the sixth Senedd. I look forward to the opportunity of voting for it, and I hope that we can see it soon.

Luke Fletcher AS: The economic fallout of the COVID-19 pandemic is being felt across Wales, and it will be felt across our economy for many years to come. However, by addressing biodiversity decline, underscored by a set of clear targets for delivery, we can create meaningful employment opportunities across the country. By investing in nature, in habitat restoration and green skills, we can boost the workforce and the economy.
The recent Dasgupta review found that our economies, livelihoods and well-being are all dependent on our most precious asset: nature. Our unsustainable engagement with nature is endangering the prosperity of current and future generations. The review also re-emphasised that biodiversity is integral to ecosystems' health, and the ability of ecosystems to provide essential benefits to society. Biodiversity loss, therefore, impacts on our life support system.
Nature recovery targets are key to driving our transition towards a nature positive economy. As we see with net zero, statutory targets have a key role in shaping investment, not only across Government but across sectors. The Aldersgate Group, a multistakeholder alliance including some of the largest businesses in the UK, has called for stronger environmental regulation, underpinned by ambitious and clear environmental targets, to provide businesses with the certainty they need over the long term to make investments that increase resilience and bring potential economic and employment benefits. Investing in habitat creation and restoration at scale has the potential to support thousands of new green jobs, which would help to absorb the economic shock of the past year. This will also go some way in developing a nature conservation skills base in Wales, to meet the needs of the future and, ultimately, provide the foundation for a shift towards a nature-positive, low-carbon economy.
One hundred and fifty stakeholders from across Wales have developed a proposal for a national nature service, and a Royal Society for the Protection of Birds report has estimated that a national nature service could support up to 7,000 green jobs in Wales. Furthermore, investing in nature-based solutions offers substantial return in investment. According to a report by Cambridge Econometrics for the RSPB, every £1 invested in habitat restoration for peatland, saltmarsh and woodland creation secures £4.62, £1.31 and £2.79 of benefit respectively. By investing in nature-based solutions, we could vastly improve water and air quality, boost ecotourism, prevent flooding, store carbon and, of course, boost biodiversity, along with countless other benefits. We can't afford to separate our economy from nature; our economy depends on it and it exists within it.
To truly achieve a green recovery in Wales, we must invest in nature. By introducing legally binding nature recovery targets to restore and create a wide array of habitats in Wales, we could deliver for the economy, create thousands of jobs while delivering for nature and for the climate. If the Welsh Government truly want to deliver a green recovery, investment in nature must be an absolute priority target for us. It would provide a clear direction for action on nature's recovery, while also providing a clear picture for future job creation and the expectations for our industries to help us reach our environmental goals. Diolch yn fawr.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I am very proud to be the species champion for the noble swift. I represent the most intensely urban constituency in Wales, and the sight and sound of swifts are one of the wonders of our summer evenings. Ely in Cardiff West is one of their preferred summer haunts. A survey in 2019 identified 14 nesting sites in those buildings. No survey could be carried out last year, and the results of this year's survey will be available in August, but we have one testimony from an RSPB member who said, 'I was in Ely last week, and there were loads of swifts just above the rooftops'. So, I expect the nesting numbers there to be high. If any refurbishment of council or housing association properties is due to take place there, swift nesting should be taken into consideration and nest boxes installed. It would be a great pity if city planners were not aware of the importance of the area for swifts. They must include nesting provision in their requirements for relevant developments.
Despite that positive evidence, the swift is rated amber across the UK for conservation status. In Wales, it has been recorded as the bird in steepest decline since 1994, according to the breeding bird survey. The breeding in Wales is down by three quarters—a more rapid loss than across the UK as a whole. So, what are the reasons for this decline? The key threat is considered to be the loss of nesting sites when buildings are restored or demolished. Mitigation work rarely takes place, and I'm not aware of environmental impact assessments taking place that pay due regard to this. What about the lack of food resources for swifts? The use of insecticides is likely to be reducing the availability of aerial invertebrates, which is what they feed off.
At the moment, the RSPB says there's no evidence that decline is due to problems at the African wintering grounds for the swift or along their migration routes. That might change with climate change, but for now, clearly, the guilty parties are in Britain, because other parts of Europe are not experiencing the same decline. So, we really do need to take it seriously. Swift boxes and swift bricks need to be de rigueur on all suitably high new buildings. I know that the Minister for Climate Change has been proactively looking at this and working to enshrine that into planning law, and I'd be most grateful if we can hear when we may be able to make that stick.
I'm very pleased that the Welsh Government is fully cognisant of the nature emergency. I understand that the Welsh Government is going to vote in favour of the Plaid motion, and that's fantastic, but declaring a nature emergency isn't going to be sufficient. We are all going to have to put our shoulders to the wheel to prevent the otherwise inevitable extinction of whole species, which, as Delyth Jewell already pointed out, we cannot allow, for the sake of future generations.
We have to tread more lightly on this earth. I heard at lunchtime, along with several other Members, the devastation that is also caused not just to the land, but also to our oceans, and I know the Minister attended that as well. I did mention, after the Minister had left, the Seaspiracydocumentary, which is on the internet, and which is utterly devastating. We are destroying our oceans across the world, because of greed, basically, and we absolutely have to do something about that. I'm absolutely not convinced that the UK Government deal on leaving the EU has made an iota of difference to the destruction of our seas around our island, and has obviously reduced our ability to persuade other people, other countries, to work together on preventing the elimination of whole species across our oceans.
You could argue that leaving the EU free market, having slammed the door on the ability of the fishing industry to export to the continent, is a blunt instrument for restoring biodiversity loss, as, if you can't sell them, you're unlikely to fish them out of the water. But that's no consolation to Welsh seafood businesses—

Can you conclude now, please?

Jenny Rathbone AC: —like the rope mussel producers who operate a sustainable business without any impact on the industrial exploitation of Welsh waters by large-scale European businesses, which continue apace. I look forward to hearing how the Government is going to deal with this really substantive matter.

James Evans MS: Protecting the environment and biodiversity in my constituency of Brecon and Radnorshire and across Wales is of the utmost importance to our long-term goals of improving the natural environment for future generations. Parties across this Parliament all agree that we must reverse biodiversity loss, and work to ensure we're at the global forefront of creating a thriving environment for nature, in order to provide the people of Wales with higher living standards and to protect our environment.
Brecon and Radnorshire is world renowned due to the beautiful Brecon Beacons national park, which runs across the southern ridge of my constituency, and, to the north, the Elan valley, which is a jewel in the Welsh crown. It attracts people from all corners of the globe—from hikers to horse riders, trail runners and nature observers. It's vital to the economy and the people who live within my community to not only maintain, but to enhance the environment.
The first part of this debate calls for legally binding requirements to reverse biodiversity loss through statutory targets. In principle, I broadly support this, but I will struggle to support this if the targets implemented come at a cost to the rural economy and people's jobs in Brecon and Radnorshire. I'm already seeing certain phosphate legislationby NRW massively impacting rural house building. We must be extremely careful to get the right balance.
This debate calls for an establishment of an independent environmental governance body for Wales. I do believe in small government, and I do not believe that vast sums of public money should be spent when, I believe, we could work across the border with the UK Government to manage this crucial issue. It's not just an issue for Wales, but the whole of the UK to enhance and protect biodiversity.
What I want to see from the proposers of this debate as they close are more clear reasons for why this organisation should be established independently in Wales, and why it could not be shared with the UK Government in a real joined-up approach to tackling climate change and biodiversity loss. I am concerned this could become another organisation that will simply just waste money and achieve very little, when the money could be put to better use in other areas of Wales to clean up the environment.
As I said, I really want to work across parties in this Chamber to help and enhance biodiversity and our environment, and I welcome conversations with the parties opposite to see how I can do that going forward in this term of Parliament. Diolch, Deputy Llywydd.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you for the opportunity to make a brief contribution to this debate. I'm fortunate to represent a constituency that is alive with wildlife; think of the Celtic rainforest at Maentwrog, the peace of Bardsey island or Cors Barfog, Cwm Maethlon. The area has an incredible collection of wildlife from the glutinous snail at Llyn Tegid to the Snowdon lily, but they are under threat.
I want to focus briefly on the public's contribution and the voluntary sector's contribution, who play their part in trying to secure the glorious natural diversity we have here in Wales. In my constituency, the Cymdeithas Eryri Snowdonia Society, which is a conservation society for the Snowdonia area, is working in all weathers to improve the national park. The society extends out to work in partnership with other bodies, such as the national park authority, the National Trust and others, in order to implement its Caru Eryri Love Snowdonia programme. Caru Eryri is reliant on volunteers to carry out the work of clearing rubbish, maintaining pathways and providing friendly advice to help visitors have a safe and responsible visit whilst respecting communities and wildlife across Snowdonia.
The volunteers work tirelessly on this valuable work between April and October, receiving training, equipment and support to do this work outside of these months. The volunteers of Cymdeithas Eryriare busy with work such as restoring wetlands, forests and peatland, and managing invasive species. This army of volunteers represents thousands of hours of environmental action on an annual basis. They do this in order to safeguard nature and special areas and make it easier for others and future generations to enjoy the glory of this very special area.
The reason I'm talking specifically about Cymdeithas Eryri is to show that the actions happening at the moment to safeguard nature and biodiversity are reliant on individuals and small and large charities on a local and national level. There are thousands of other volunteers doing similar work for other organisations too, of course. But we can't rely on volunteers.They and the charities and organisations working in this area, such as Cymdeithas Eryri, want national guidance, and they want the Government to act too.
They are welcoming the positive action where Wales is in the vanguard, but what these volunteers and others want to see is the Government committing to clear targets for the restoration of nature and to legislate in order to close the gap in terms of environmental governance. The volunteers play their part, but where is the leadership coming from? They want to see the Government taking action on climate and nature restoration, and in addition to this, as well as warm words and headlines, they want to see measurable evidence of the efficiency and effectiveness of these actions. Finally, they want to know that those responsible for safeguarding the environment are accountable for their work. These people have shown the way; now, the Government must step up to the mark and take action.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you very much, everyone, for taking part in the debate. I'm really delighted to have a chance to put this issue in front of the Chamber quite so early in the new Senedd term. As people have pointed out, we will not be opposing the motion. In fact, I'm very much pleased to be supporting it. We are, of course, putting climate change and nature at the heart all the decisions in this new Government. We are very aware of the challenges we face. Globally, biodiversity is still being lost at a frightening rate, and the situation in Wales is similar, with the rapid decline in our most precious species and habitats.
It was heartening, though, Deputy Presiding Officer, to listen to a number of Members mention the species champion role that they've undertaken. I know that people are very proud of the species that they've championed, and a number of Members mentioned them. I myself am the species champion for the native oyster, and have been very pleased to see the reseeding of the native oyster beds around Swansea and the coast of Gower. I know that my colleague Lee Waters is the species champion for the hedgehog, a well-known indicator of a good ecosystem, and a well-known predator of slugs and other the garden pests. So, we too are very proud of ours. We are very happy to work with the species champions across the Chamber, and I encourage any new Member who has not yet gota species champion in tow to take one on as soon as you can. You do learn an awful lot about the ecosystem necessary to support your species and also what action you can take in order to champion it.

Julie James AC: In particular, on the swift boxes, I am very pleased to say that we are incorporating them into our innovative housing programme. We have swift bricks going up across a number of social houses across Wales, and we are looking—and my colleague Lee Waters in particular is looking—at biodiversity along road routes and rail routes, including incorporating swift boxes and other nesting boxes as appropriate along those routes. So, those kinds of actions can make small but very important differences in the way that especially migratory birds are received in Wales. And I'm very delighted to have seen them; I've actually seen a swift in my own garden only very recently, which was a lovely sight.
And of course we have acknowledged the escalating nature emergency and we, along with the rest of the world, absolutely acknowledge that we have not yet made enough progress towards the aim of reversing the decline in biodiversity. And of course the climate and nature emergencies are inextricably linked. You have one because you have the other. Climate change is one of the key drivers of biodiversity loss. Changes in temperature or rainfall can cause loss of habitats and species, reducing the resilience of the overall ecosystems. This isn't an either/or or a 'nice to have'; these things are absolutely inextricably linked. Biodiversity loss, particularly in areas like peatlands, can then reduce nature's ability to store carbon, exacerbating climate change in an escalating vicious circle. We need to intervene in that circle and reverse the change.
This is not a small thing to say, and it's an even bigger thing to do. We all know that. But it's not a counsel of despair, either. There are still things that we can and should do, but these are not easy things and they are not straightforward things. And many of you here in the Chamber will have to have a long, hard look at your own particular priorities and the way that you're behaving, as well as the Welsh Government, because we will need to do this together and make those very difficult decisions.
Reducing the direct pressures on nature from climate change as well as from pollution and unsustainable consumption is therefore an integral part of the action needed to stem biodiversity loss. As a Government, we are taking action to reduce these major pressures on our ecosystems. This will include improving water quality, reducing air pollution, decarbonisation and the circular economy. We're also continuing to invest significantly in our natural environment to restore and to create resilient ecological networks across Wales. These, of course, provide the many benefits that many Members in the debate today have mentioned, such as flood management, soil restoration, carbon sequestration and allowing species to move and, indeed, adapt to the change.
Much of our current work now contributes to these nature networks. The Glastir Woodland Creation scheme and the national forest will support biodiversity through creating more mixed woodlands, enhancing and connecting existing woodlands as we go. And my colleague, again Lee Waters, has been doing a deep dive into tree planting in Wales, about how we can ensure that we plant more of the right trees in more of the right places as swiftly as possible in order to enhance our woodlands, enhance our carbon sequestration and, of course, create our national forest.
The national peatland action programme will also improve peatland ecosystem resilience nationwide and contribute to climate change mitigation. We have an excellent project going on in north Gower, in my colleague Rebecca Evans's constituency, the Cwm Ivy scheme, in which we are helping to restore the salt marsh in north Gower to create approximately 39 hectares of salt marsh following an actual breach of the sea defences at Cwm Ivy. The new salt marsh, of course, will help provide the compensatory habitat that will be needed to offset the likely loss of salt marsh habitat in the future due to a combination of sea level rise due to climate change and the need for new coastal flood defences across Wales. And in this way, we need to have an integrated programme, both of flood defence for our communities but also mitigation for our species that require those inter-tidal areas to thrive and flourish. Salt marshes, of course, also contribute to carbon sequestration and a number of other ecosystem services.
The reason I'm saying that, Deputy Presiding Officer, is because the economy and our ecology, our nature and our ecosystems are not in conflict. Many of the things that we want to do to mitigate climate change and to help with increased biodiversity restoration also help our economy, and those things can go hand in hand. I think it's essential that this Chamber does not see them as conflicting things, an either/or choice, but as an integrated whole, that we can work together to make sure that people have the jobs of the future that do not destroy our planet as they go.
We have a nature networks fund, with the National Lottery Heritage Fund, to improve the condition, connectivity and resilience of Wales's marine and terrestrial protected site networks to enable them to function better at the heart of the nature networks—vital areas of ecological resilience in which habitats and species can thrive and expand. This absolutely has to be central to our future sustainable land management policy. We are committed to shifting financial support we provide for agriculture so we properly reward farmers for the environmental and social outcomes they deliver alongside the production of food. These services include, of course, clean water and air, carbon sequestration and creating and restoring valuable habitats on their land.
We also recognise that an important part of tackling the nature and climate emergency is engaging and harnessing the power of individuals and local communities to take action, and Mabon and others highlighted very well what local communities can do when they come together in their local area. Our nature networks fund is also designed to create those networks of people that are engaged in those sites, and this is done through increasing and diversifying volunteer bases, supporting citizen science initiatives, and training schemes such as Kickstart. I thought Mabon's example was a very good one also.
Our Local Places for Nature programme encourages everyone to engage with nature, to value nature and to create nature on their doorsteps. As Siân highlighted, the focus has to be on urban areas, particularly Wales's most disadvantaged communities and those with little access to nature, to ensure that every one of our younger generations, our future generations, is engaged in the natural environment.
Investing in our natural environment contributes to our ambition, set out in the programme for government, to build a stronger green economy. This investment will support skills development and green jobs, as I've said. As a small country, our ambitions for tackling the nature emergency lie not only at the local level, but also on the global stage. We support the development of the convention on biological diversity post-2020 global biodiversity framework, enabling bold action to drive change to halt biodiversity loss. Our priorities include mainstreaming biodiversity consideration in all decision making, strengthening capacity and capability to implement nature-based solutions, and sharing best practice in Wales and internationally. We're actively engaged in the development of the post-2020 monitoring and indicator framework, working with DEFRA at state level. We anticipate a new global biodiversity framework with clear goals and targets following the convention in October.
Through the Edinburgh process for sub-national governments we are signatories to the Edinburgh declaration, which calls for parties to the convention to take strong and bold actions to bring about transformative change. It also recognises the vital role of sub-national governments, cities and local authorities in delivering that vision.
Deputy Presiding Officer, I could actually carry on talking for about 40 minutes about all of the things we're doing, but I can see that you're getting impatient about it. This is a very important subject, however, and I think the last thing I want to get across to people is that we absolutely do need to have an environmental governance body for Wales. We will be bringing forward legislation for that, and we will be looking at biodiversity targets, but we'll be looking at those in the context of both the global framework, the UK framework, and to make sure that we do not have the unintended consequences of setting targets in a particular area that mean other very important areas are lost. I will welcome working across party in this Chamber to make sure that we set the targets that drive the actions that are important. It's not the targets that drive the change, it's the actions. The targets are only a measure—the actions that we need to ensure that Wales plays its full role in tackling both the climate and nature emergencies on the world stage. Diolch.

I call on Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate.

Delyth Jewell AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, what a wonderful debate this has been.

Delyth Jewell AC: I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for her speech. I recognise as well that declaring a crisis on its own doesn't achieve enough, as the Minister just said. That's why we would also propose targets and governance on the things that need to be done. But I like that image of hope and that crescendo of action that she talked about.

Delyth Jewell AC: That sense of crescendo, of a growing sense of cross-party support, was picked up by Huw Irranca-Davies, and I welcome his support, too.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you to Siân Gwenllian for speaking again about the hope that comes from the fact that rare species can be saved, and for talking about how important it is to turn this situation around for our children.

Delyth Jewell AC: Mark Isherwood reminded us of the international framing, of course, of our debate. It's been so wonderful as well to hear Mark, Siân, Jenny, Julie and other Members talk about their own species for which they're champion. To the young—well, to the new Members, I should say, in the Senedd, who might be envious about how many species champions we've been talking about, I'm sure that Wales Environment Link will be in touch before September. There is a programme, and it would be wonderful if as many as possible of you could be involved in that.
Mike Hedges spoke of this possible dystopian future, where children might not recognise the animals in some of our most beloved books, and Luke Fletcher was talking about how, investing in nature, we can boost the economy, boost eco tourism and prevent flooding. He said our economy depends on nature and exists within it. Hear, hear.
Now, Jenny Rathbone brought a really important perspective, I think, to this debate: the impact of urbanisation on wildlife, specifically swifts that Jenny was talking about. I love this phrase that Jenny used, 'We have to tread more lightly on this earth.' What a wonderful phrase that is, and then the complementary contrasting perspective brought by James Evans about the Brecon Beacons. Now, James, I hope that some of the concerns you expressed about the rural economy can be assuaged somewhat by the points that Luke had been making earlier, but I do recognise this is an important consideration. I welcome the fact that you were saying you'd like to work cross party on this.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you to Mabon for that contribution about the wonderful nature in Dwyfor Meirionnydd, the Snowdonia Society, as well as the power of the community. That's such an important element.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, finally, to the Minister for confirming that the Government will be supporting the motion. Swifts made an appearance in the Minister's contribution as well, and I think that that was a really important point that the Minister made that this is not a small thing to say, and an even bigger thing to do. It is an important challenge that, obviously, we can't just declare a nature emergency—we have to back this up with action.

Delyth Jewell AC: Now, it's clear from the contributions that nature is in crisis in Wales, but that we also have an opportunity now to change that. We can introduce targets for nature's restoration that are legally binding, that will lead to investment, monitoring and improvement, because without legislation in the past, the targets haven't been achieved. Now, I understand the stance of the Conservatives here, but I would urge them to support our motion without amendment. What a clear declaration that would give—that every party in our Senedd supports the motion.

Delyth Jewell AC: Now, I think that from some of the really wonderful, eloquent contributions that we've had today, one of the most pressing points I suppose that's come out of the debate is how we are not just acting for our own generation, for the people who are living on this planet now; we are doing it for generations yet to be born—children whose health, happiness and interpersonal skills benefit so much from being outside in the glory of nature. If we are truly to prioritise the well-being of future generations, acting on this emergency has to be paramount.
So, Dirprwy Lywydd, in closing I would repeat our demands that I hope very much will now be passed. There must be a declaration of nature emergency. We must have legally-binding targets to halt and reverse biodiversity decline, and we must have an independent means of environmental governance in Wales. Dirprwy Lywydd, I hope and I expect that we are about to take a definitive and historic step in this Senedd. I commend our motion to the Chamber, and I hope Members will vote to declare a climate and nature emergency.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, I see that there is objection on Zoom from Darren Millar. Therefore, we will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

And in accordance with Standing Order 12.18, we move to voting time, but we will take a short break to prepare for those votes. Thank you.

Plenary was suspended at 17:43.

The Senedd reconvened at 17:48, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

8. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time, and the first vote is on the debate on a Member's legislative proposal on a Bill on a rights-based approach to services for older people. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Gareth Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 29, 17 abstentions, seven against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Item 6 - Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal: A Bill on a rights-based approach to services for older people: For: 29, Against: 7, Abstain: 17
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on the Plaid Cymru debate on climate and biodiversity. I call for a vote first of all on the motion, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 40, no abstentions and 13 against, therefore the motion is agreed.

Item 7 - Plaid Cymru Debate - Motion without amendment: For: 40, Against: 13, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

And therefore, if the motion is agreed, the motion is agreed, and there will be no votes on the amendments. That concludes voting time.

9. Short Debate: The impact of Natural Resources Wales's phosphate regulations

We will, therefore, move on to the short debate, and I call on James Evans to speak to the topic that he has chosen—James Evans.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Llywydd. This week, I will not run over time, like I did the last time we had a debate, and I will allocate a minute of my time to Laura Anne Jones, Peter Fox and Mabon ap Gwynfor.
Members in this Chamber and those watching remotely find much about which we disagree. On this occasion, I'm going to focus upon something that I believe we can all agree on—the absolute need to do everything possible to maintain and improve the quality of our water in our Welsh rivers. The rivers in Wales are the silver threads between our uplands and the coast. They are home to a huge variety of wildlife. They offer opportunity for recreational enjoyment and play a crucial role in growing our economy by attracting tourists to our wonderful country. We have iconic rivers in Wales, such as the Cleddau, the Teifi and the Tawe, and, of course, the Usk and Wye, which pass through my own constituency of Brecon and Radnorshire. These have been designated special areas of conservation. They are home to precious species such as the Atlantic salmon, the freshwater pearl mussel and the white-clawed crayfish, and they all need our protection. The SAC rivers gain all the environmental plaudits, but we demote the importance of rivers such as the Conwy, the Taff and the Tawe at our peril. Those rivers pass through our larger communities and we have a duty of care to those living in those areas to improve the quality of water right across Wales.
The foot soldiers in the Welsh Government's battle to improve rivers are the officers of Natural Resources Wales, effectively an arm of the Government accountable only to the First Minister and his Cabinet colleagues. At the end of 2020, when people were looking forward to making the best of a COVID-restricted Christmas, NRW issued guidance to planning authorities for immediate implementation. The guidance applies to the vast majority of planning applications for development with the potential to increase phosphates into the water courses in the catchments of nine river SACs in Wales. Unless these developments can show that they can be phosphate-neutral or negative, the planning authorities have no course of action other than to reject these applications. That guidance applies to housing, offices, factories and even down to the family who wish to build an extension for a newborn baby or an elderly family relative. Yet this does not apply in the catchments of the Conwy, the Taff or the Tawe, and one must wonder why. Nonetheless, I repeat: we all want to see water quality improving. But one has to question whether other more effective measures have been ignored and whether NRW and those looking to new houses, offices or toilets have fallen prey to the law of unintended consequences.
I welcome the commitment from Welsh Water to upgrade their infrastructure, but this is a long-term programme that does not address the current problem. In my own constituency, for instance, only two of Welsh Water's treatment works, at Talgarth and Llandrindod Wells, can currently remove the phosphates to an acceptable standard. This is well below what is required. All too often, we hear that untreated sewer and phosphate-laden water is discharged from water treatment works into our water courses. So, that leaves us in a situation where the granny flat in Llanwrtyd Wells or the toilets in Brecon using mains sewers are effectively banned by NRW because they will add a tiny miniscule amount to the overall phosphate levels entering our rivers. Yet again, we see a policy decision by Welsh Government being put into action without the necessary engagement of stakeholders, without adequate funding or investment and without giving the solutions to take corrective action. Yet again, the administration's policy is strangling development, putting NRW, Welsh Water and planning authorities in an impossible role, ultimately putting the blame and responsibility of phosphate management onto your average builder and householder. This policy condemns the hopes and aspirations of so many people looking to get onto the housing ladder and throttles the economy. It also curtails the Welsh Government's own targets around house building, and I've said it many times in this Chamber before: it is the left hand just simply not talking to the right.
But let me just suggest a few ideas in the spirit of collaboration, as a problem shared is a problem halved. Agriculture is often accused of being a major source of pollution and one agricultural pollution incident is one too many. Farmers are the guardians of our countryside and care deeply for the quality of our environment and landscapes. Farmers are imaginative and energetic and, as we debate this issue here, many are considering means of improving their management of waste and water quality. But, Minister, they need help. I know Welsh Government have schemes in place to address agricultural water pollution, such as covering muck stores, but the financial support does not go far enough. So, if Welsh Government are determined to solve agricultural pollution, you need to put your money where your mouth is.
The planning authorities in Wales also lack clear guidance on how to apply these regulations, leaving applications at a standstill in the planning process. So, Minister, I urge you to have wider stakeholder engagement with planning authorities, builders and architects and their agents, so they can all understand how to interpret this confusing guidance.
Whilst Welsh Water have a long-term aim of upgrading the waste water treatment works, this needs Welsh Government support, and pressure needs to be there to make sure this happens. We also need to look at interim measures. We could look at onsite package treatment plants, a regular feature in rural areas like mine and others in this Chamber. Yet Natural Resources Wales have imposed severe restrictions upon the use of such plants in the river SACs to the point where many hundreds of residential units, dozens of commercial proposals and many home improvements are simply stuck in the planning system. So, Minister, maybe you could look at this and help unblock the problem.
This is not a new problem. In Scandinavia and Germany in particular, tough limits have been in place for many years, and technical solutions have been developed to make certain that outflows from private treatment works actually improve the quality of water in their rivers. These and other solutions have been proposed to local authorities in Wales by applicants, but are met with silence and, at worst, a refusal by NRW to contemplate or even comment on proposed routes through this increasingly embarrassing situation.
In my area, we have hundreds of applications for homes, many of which are affordable homes, completely stalled. Similar frustration applies to office, retail and even public sector developments of new council homes, and these aren't the only projects in the pipeline. From the new school to the housing association scheme, the new factory, and even attempts to give an elderly relative or a new family member a home, the outlook is bleak for many developments right across Wales.
Minister, you have the power to address these issues. You have an environmental time bomb waiting for you in the rivers of the valley towns of much of north and south Wales, as they seem to be neglected by NRW, and I call upon you to join us in looking for an immediate and effective solution to this crisis and convene a meeting of NRW, Welsh Water and other stakeholders for an emergency summit to find solutions to addressing this problem, or otherwise your targets of building homes will be missed and many people and businesses will suffer the consequences for many years to come. Diolch, Llywydd.

Laura Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Can you hear me? Yes. Diolch, Llywydd. Firstly, can I thank James for bringing this important issue to the Chamber? Llywydd, I live a stone's throw away from the River Usk, and very close to the River Wye, both beautiful rivers that I would like to stay clean and protected. But the way in which these regulations are being implemented has once again shown that the Welsh Government prefers to reach for the sledgehammer rather than the nutcracker and to work against businesses rather than with them.
As James Evans said earlier, I don't think that any of us in this Chamber would deny that we need to reduce the amount of phosphates that enter water courses. But bringing the new advisory note to planning authorities overnight is essentially regulation through the back door. It is bad government, which has left developers and planning departments without a clear way forward, which creates unintended consequences. For example, Newport has one of the fastest-growing housing markets in Wales. Prices are rocketing in value, in part because of the strength of the economy of the west of England. So, to make sure that local people can still afford to buy a home that they can call their own, we need to continue building houses. However, because of these new requirements being brought in overnight, it has brought some developments, as James said, to a halt, creating a log jam in the system and driving up prices on those developments that do go ahead as a result, further perpetuating the problem.
And as for those developers that have no means of facilitating the necessary upgrades in waste water infrastructure, Llywydd, there is no sign of this log jam being removed any time soon. And if you are a builder in South Wales East, would you choose to invest in Wales when you have to contend with a hostile and unpredictable business environment like this, or pop across the border where there's a stronger economy in England, or maybe just give up altogether? That is a decision that scores of businesses are making in my region every day, Llywydd, because they've had enough.
It didn't need to be like this. Our water companies already recognise that they are responsible for between a quarter and a third of phosphate levels in our rivers. I would suggest that, if it was a small business or a farm that was responsible for so much pollution in the river, NRW would be using the full force of the law to get them to do whatever they could to comply. So, why has NRW and the Welsh Government not required this investment from water companies? Why has it not supported them to make these investments? Why has it not delayed these rules until the necessary waste water infrastructure is in place? The Government—

I'm going to need to cut across you now, because I've been very generous with time. I appreciate that you don't see the clock that we do in the Chamber, but I do want to call the two other Members as well. Thank you. Peter Fox.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you, James, for giving me a minute of your time. And I'll cut straight to the chase—I absolutely support everything that you've said today. And just to demonstrate the pressure that it's putting on the planning system in Monmouthshire, for instance, we have currently 105 houses on the open market, which are planning applications that are held up, 77 affordable houses being stuck in the system. And it's likely to rise to 379 planning applications stuck in the system, 157 of those affordable housing. And that's really, really important—devastating for the applicants, devastating for those young people who are waiting for homes. And we need to find a solution here. Because Welsh Water, obviously, have committed most of their capital now, there needs to be a solution where Welsh Government, Welsh Water and local authorities come together very quickly and find a way of unlocking this impasse, because the technical solutions, which are there, cannot give that neutrality of phosphate discharge that is needed. Thank you, Llywydd.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you very much to James for giving of his time to allow me to contribute, and thank you for bringing this debate forward. Of course, water pollution is an issue that needs to be tackled, and that needs to be done with the collaboration of stakeholders. What we've seen here, however, is NRW identifying a problem but failing to collaborate with stakeholders in order to find a rational solution. There are plans, as we've already heard from Peter Fox, for the development of social housing and affordable homes that are being held up at the moment because of this policy. We have local development plans, city regions and national development frameworks all at risk of being affected by this new and hasty policy.
We need to look at collaboration with water providers in order to see what investment is necessary on water treatment plants, or look to redirect pipes to existing wetlands or develop new wetlands. We must learn the lessons, therefore, and ensure that all stakeholders are part of this conversation before such far-reaching decisions are taken in the future. And, in this case, we need to bring stakeholders together to see how they can all play their part in finding a long-term solution to this problem. Thank you.

The Minister for Climate Change to reply to the debate—Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Sustainably managing our natural resources and enhancing our environmental assets for future generations is absolutely at the heart of the Welsh Government's long-term ambition. Given our strategic objectives and the requirements of the Environment Act (Wales) 2016 and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, we need to adopt a whole-ecosystem approach. We need to work with partners and stakeholders to reduce nutrient concentrations. This will ensure Welsh rivers are as resilient as possible to current and emerging pressures.
I'm sure I do not need to emphasise how central the availability of clean water and a healthy water environment is to our economy, well-being and national identity. We face significant challenges for the future management of our natural resources. We need to act now to ensure that Wales has a thriving water environment that is sustainably managed. It is also crucial that we take action to protect this great natural resource. It is also our duty to care for all of Wales's rivers, especially those internationally important and designated as special areas of conservation. We can be proud of having nine river catchments designated in Wales, forming part of a larger network of protected sites across Wales, all of which are crucial to helping tackle our nature and climate emergencies.
As has already been mentioned, these waters support some of Wales's most special wildlife, like the Atlantic salmon, freshwater pearl mussel, and the white-clawed crayfish. SACs are also essential places of recreation and relaxation, and there is also a growing body of evidence that access to nature, including rivers, can have a hugely positive effect on people's mental health.
The adoption of tighter phosphorus targets within SACs by NRW was a response to scientific evidence and advice by the Joint Nature Conservation Committee. Phosphorous is a naturally occurring element. Normally, it is released slowly at low levels from natural sources. However, human activity is also responsible, due to the way we manage our land and how we dispose of our waste water and sewage. Climate change also plays a role. Warmer and drier summers reduce flows during the growing season, resulting in increased nutrient levels in our waters.
Why is phosphorous so damaging to the water environment? Well, even at lower concentrations, phosphorous can have a negative impact on reef reed ecology. It causes eutrophication: a significant reduction in the availability of oxygen within the river system. Nutrient overload leads to algae boom on the surface, killing the aquatic species below. NRW's assessment of phosphorous levels established an alarming failure in our SAC rivers, with only 39 per cent passing the required target. The subsequent advice that NRW issued to planning authorities reflects the current state of our waters. It is designed to ensure developments within these sensitive areas are not taking place to the detriment of our environment. NRW's advice is in line with the ruling of the European Court of Justice from 2018, generally referred to as 'the Dutch case'. The ruling, under the habitats directive, requires a guarantee that the natural features of nature conservation areas are not affected by any proposed development. Unless a development can be proven to be neutral—for example, it does not increase existing nutrient levels—planning permission must not be granted. The case law forms part of EU retained law under the withdrawal agreement, and Wales is under obligation to comply with it.
As a result of NRW's assessment, it is clear we need to take a more precautionary approach to development in SACs. More assessment is needed of each of the proposed projects to fully understand the environmental impact. Assurances that nutrient levels are not going to increase are needed. There are solutions, many of which are nature based, which can offset phosphorous pollution whilst allowing developments to take place. These are complex, however, and need to be explored on a catchment basis by all affected sectors, bringing together developers, farmers, water companies and the regulators.It is absolutely necessary we take a cross-sectoral approach to reducing phosphorous levels in Welsh SACs in order to safeguard our natural river environment. The pressures are multiple, from sewage discharges, agricultural run-offs, sceptic tanks and misconnections. There isn't one cause of pollution, and the pressures differ depending on the characteristics of the particular river catchment. Our rivers and Wales's environment need to be managed holistically.
Moving forward, we need to achieve a fair balance between the environment and the economy. These two terms do not need to be mutually exclusive. Green growth is more than just a utopian aspiration; it is the only long-term solution to the climate and nature crisis we are experiencing, and, indeed, Llywydd, have just debated in the Chamber. And in that debate, I said we need to take a long, hard look at what we're asking for whilst also asking to declare a climate and nature emergency. This is one such, where we have to take a long, hard look at what we are doing to our rivers and mitigate the effects of our previous development. To manage that issue, a project plan has been set up in NRW—delivering the SAC rivers project, investigating and tackling phosphorous pollution for rivers, including the Wye, Usk, Cleddau, lower Teifi and the Dee, and that is part of the NRW corporate plan for 2021-22. Under the project plan, NRW will provide advice and position statements to key stakeholders, including local planning authorities. Other aspects of the plan focus on water quality standards, compliance assessments and interventions to deliver water quality improvements. There is indeed a commitment to increase monitoring and data collection as well.
My officials have also set up an SAC management oversight group to provide high-level governance and strategic direction to help expedite a number of relevant work areas. As this issue affects many sectors and stakeholders, the group includes representatives from across the relevant policy departments, as well as key external stakeholders, to provide a focus for collaborative multisectoral responses. A planning sub-group has also been established, made up of local authority planners, representing the Planning Officers Society for Wales, the Planning Inspectorate, Welsh Government, the Home Builders Federation, Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water and NRW, to consider specific implications for planning system priorities and improved planning guidance.
As a recent UK climate change risk assessment highlights, fresh water habitats and species are particularly vulnerable to high water temperatures and drought. The causes of pollution and the threat they pose to our natural river ecosystems in the face of rising water temperatures are particularly acute. Warmer river temperatures reduce oxygen levels and increase rates of biological chemical processes. This is especially the case for algal growth rates and nutrients. We need to act decisively to tackle the climate and nature emergency, as everybody said in the previous debate, so that people can go on treasuring Wales's rich natural resources for generations to come, and, Llywydd, this Government is doing exactly that.

I thank the Minister. That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:09.

QNR

Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution

Heledd Fychan: What legal advice has the Counsel General given to the Welsh Government regarding progressing the devolution of broadcasting to Wales?

Mick Antoniw: The view of the Welsh Government remains that broadcasting or elements of broadcasting should not be devolved.

Janet Finch-Saunders: What discussions has the Counsel General had with law officers about enforcement of planning conditions?

Mick Antoniw: While I have not discussed enforcement of planning conditions, I welcome the contribution of the Law Commission in their report 'Planning Law in Wales' to the improvement of planning conditions and enforcement in general.

Questions to the Minister for Social Justice

Luke Fletcher: What plans does the Welsh Government have to pursue the devolution of the administration of welfare?

Jane Hutt: I welcomed the ELGC committee report 'Benefits in Wales: options for better delivery'. I will continue to follow up the committee’s recommendations to improve take-up of welfare benefits and to improve outcomes for people hardest hit by the pandemic.

Huw Irranca-Davies: What discussions has the Minister had with police and crime commissioners in Wales regarding local community engagement on policing and community safety?

Jane Hutt: The Welsh Government has a close partnership with the Welsh police. A key part of this is that I meet regularly with the lead police and crime commissioner to discuss a range of issues that impact on community safety.

Russell George: Will the Minister make a statement on the progress of the community bank of Wales?

Jane Hutt: Wales is leading the way to establish the first community bank in the UK. The private sector partner brings experienced and licenced competency, reduces risk, cost and timelines. We remain on track to establish the community bank for Wales before the end of 2021.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership

Sam Rowlands: What support is the Welsh Government providing to veterans in North Wales?

Hannah Blythyn: This Welsh Government is committed to continuing to provide and build up on support and services for veterans in north Wales. This includes peer mentoring support, mental health first-aid training and funding to alleviate loneliness and social isolation. Further details can be found in our annual report, which I launched on 22 June.